Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 26th, 2013

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

It is very difficult to say because of lack of access to the Tibetan population and the areas. After 2008 there were several reports that hundreds—some say thousands—were arrested and put behind bars. Many of them met with long-term imprisonment. As UN Human Rights Commissioner Navi Pillay says, many have disappeared. That seems to be a reality.

So it is really difficult to put down numbers, but definitely it is in the hundreds, if not in the thousands. The Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy, which is an NGO, has come out with a report recently, and also the Tibetan Department of Information and International Relations has come out with a report specifically on the 2008 uprising, which lists hundreds of political prisoners who are still in prison.

The unfortunate part is that many more who are unknown have disappeared. Until you have access to Tibetan areas, we will never know how many are in prison and how many have disappeared.

On the other hand, the Chinese government continues to say that anyone is welcome to come to Tibet to see for themselves the socialist paradise they have built for Tibetans. The spokesman for the foreign ministry insists that the door to dialogue is open. I often say that if they show us the door, we will enter that door. Similarly, they say you are welcome to come, but when members of the parliaments of different countries—and I hope members of the Canadian Parliament will also have a delegation to visit Tibet and will make the request through the Chinese embassy here in Ottawa to go to Tibet to assess the situation.... It is very likely that permission will be denied.

Because of these difficult circumstances it is almost impossible to give you exact numbers. But definitely it is high in numbers, for the population, because there are so many prisons that we know of. Even a gulag is reportedly in Tibetan areas. When there are so many prisons, you have to have many prisoners as well.

I'm sure there are many Tibetans who are facing very difficult experiences and going through enormous suffering in prisons in Tibet.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'm also wondering about the situation of the monks, because there's greater surveillance, if not outright control now, of the monks and of the nunneries in Tibet.

What is the situation now with the ability of Tibetans, let alone of the monks, to engage in religious expression or manifestations of their own religion?

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

I'm sorry to say it, but I have much sad news to inform you of.

As far as monasteries and nunneries are concerned, again the Chinese government has come out with a statement saying that they have established “democratic management committees” in 7,000 or so monasteries and nunneries in the Tibet Autonomous Region alone. Our definition of Tibet also includes the Amdo and Kham regions, which are part of Sichuan, Yunnan, Gansu, and Qinghai.

The democratic management committee in every monastery functions as an extension of the Communist Party, because the committee has Communist Party members. So you have Communist Party members who say that religion is poison, and they are atheists and are managing the monasteries. If any recruits come in, they are the ones who control their entry, and for any expulsion that has to be made, they are in charge.

Sadly, one of the reasons there are self-immolations is that photographs of His Holiness the Dalai Lama are banned. They are not only banned; when you are a monk in a monastery, you are shown the picture of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and are asked to condemn it—to spit on it, to stamp on it. If you don't, your loyalty is questioned, and then you are expelled, and worse, you might go to prison.

It's an irony that the committee is called “democratic management” but that its function is so undemocratic, so controlling that it's forcing Tibetans to stay out of the monastery, particularly Kirti Monastery, which was the main monastery and where a large number of self-immolations have taken place. From housing at one time a few thousand monks, it was reduced to a few hundred, because they expelled so many monks from the monastery. Then self-immolators, at least in 2011, started in Kirti Monastery and monasteries associated with Kirti Monastery.

So you can see direct causality between the democratic management committee controlling and expelling monks and the same monks going out into the streets and protesting.

As far as religious freedom is concerned, it is very repressive and very restrictive so far.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

This year is also the year that China will be served with the universal periodic review. Now, at the last universal periodic review, Canada made a whole series of recommendations, regrettably hardly any of which were accepted by China. What do you think might be some of the main recommendations that Canada could put forward with respect to China at this universal periodic review?

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

I think it's very important that Canada as well as the international community send a clear message to China that we would welcome its rise economically, but that as it is a member of the United Nations and also a growing power, we would like to see it be a responsible member of the international community, because with growth in stature, responsibility is very important. Canada and many democratic countries have accepted responsibilities and have contributed greatly by spreading or encouraging freedom everywhere in the world. So it is very important that the message be very clear.

For example, China wants to be a member of the Human Rights Council. In 2004 the Chinese government agreed to allow the special rapporteur on religious freedom of the United Nations to visit China and Tibet. They agreed. It's been nine years and the Chinese government has yet to fulfill its own pledge to allow the special rapporteur on religious freedom to visit China and Tibet. Now, I think it is very fair and it should be expected that a responsible member of the international community—the Chinese government—fulfill its own pledge, which was made nine years ago. Otherwise, if you allow a decade to pass and one pledge not to be fulfilled, for how many years will you wait, and for how many years will you have reviews and recommendations that will never be followed?

I think it is important that the international community insist that when the periodic review comes, we'll actually review it and make recommendations that will actually be followed by the Chinese government. Otherwise, a decade will pass, or two decades will pass, and then recommendations will keep coming and will not be implemented by the Chinese government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We go now to Mr. Sweet again.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

As I listened to the testimony, I think it was Mr. Marston who used the term “cultural annihilation”. Sikyong Sangay mentioned language as a very central aspect of ethnicity and cultural identity, and now we hear this testimony regarding the other thing that is central to the Tibetan identity, and that's Buddhism. Professor Cotler mentioned a record of those who were detained, and of course we're also very concerned about those who have disappeared as well. I mean those who not only have been detained, but also those who have been tortured and of course have eventually succumbed to it.

What is the state right now of the Panchen Lama, since you were talking about the identity of the people and about this disdainful practice that would be pushed upon him of spitting on the picture of His Holiness? Where is the Panchen Lama now?

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

As you all might know, Panchen Lama is the second most popular or well-known lama or incarnate lama in Tibetan Buddhism. The 10th Panchen Lama passed away, and then his reincarnation was recognized by His Holiness the Dalai Lama and mainly recommended by the Tashilhunpo monastery, which is the seat monastery of Panchen Lamas.

After His Holiness the Dalai Lama made the announcement of a young boy as the reincarnation of Panchen Lama, he disappeared, along with his family members. So until today we don't know exactly where he is. In his place the Chinese government imposed their candidate as the “Panchen Lama”. It's almost like Fidel Castro picking the next pope and saying this is your lama. It did not just hurt the sentiments of the Tibetan people; it is also against Tibetan Buddhist practice to have a lama imposed on them by the Chinese government. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly where the Panchen Lama is. He is now in his early 20s. Gedhun Choekyi Nyima has disappeared.

To have the Panchen Lama released by the Chinese government will be a gesture on their part that they actually allow religious freedom; otherwise, his continued disappearance is a reflection of how Tibetan religious freedom is denied to Tibetans.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Dr. Sangay, you mentioned that constitutionally, institutionally, and politically, the People's Republic of China—and I haven't made that delineation, Mr. Chair, but I want to make sure now that we're talking about the Government of China and not the general peoples of China—have made accommodation for Macau and Hong Kong. If that rule is there in other instances, can you tell us why it is not there with Tibet? What is the resistance of the People's Republic of China regarding Tibet?

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

One interpretation is that, as I said earlier, maybe they see people in Hong Kong and Macau as Chinese, Hun Chinese, and Tibetans as not Chinese. There lies the contradiction. On the one hand, the official policy and statements are that Tibetans are part of the family. We are brothers and sisters; we are the same. On the other hand, they grant one constitutional system to Hong Kong and Macau, but yet deny it to Tibetans. It's one thing to say you are part of the family and it's another thing that you are denied a similar right.

There is an element of what I call Hun chauvinism in that sense. There is discrimination towards Tibetan people for sure.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

To be clear, in His Holiness's third way, which is consistent with your leadership now, this is an autonomy within China, correct?

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

As we seek genuine autonomy within the People's Republic of China and within the framework of the Chinese constitution, it would mean that if the Chinese government implements their own laws we could take that as general autonomy. We are as reasonable and as moderate as one could be. That is on the table. Unfortunately, the Chinese government has yet to reciprocate in kind.

As I shared, we have invested in democracy and non-violence for many decades. I got elected through a democratic process, which is a bit unusual because it's an exile community. It was not a district-based, province-based, or a country-based election. It was a cross-continent-based election, so Tibetans in nearly 40-some countries voted in 2011 and elected me as their representative.

What we followed was very democratic. People from Alaska to Australia participated in the election. Our election commissioner was equally strict, as far as the election was concerned. The honourable David Sweet was also part of the observers who informally observed and certified this to be a genuine election. March 20 is the final round of elections. People in Changtang, of Ladahk—that is 5,000 metres high. Nomads participated in the election. Local election officials carried ballot boxes on the backs of yaks and donkeys and walked up the mountain for several days in temperatures of minus forty degrees. Then the nomads came down from tents and voted in the election.

So Tibetans all across the world, including a fine Tibetan community in Canada, with the largest in Toronto, participated in that election. We also had rounds of debates among candidates so that people could have their choices made very clear.

Through that election process I was elected. In that sense, I do enjoy the democratic mandate of the Tibetan people. Also, as a matter of principle, we subscribe to non-violence as an uncompromising principle. We are invested in non-violence and democracy, which we believe is a good thing, and we will continue to do so.

In that sense, your support for Tibet will be a support for democracy and non-violence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet.

Mr. Jacob, you have the floor.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sangay, thank you for coming to give testimony before our committee.

You talked about how monasteries are managed. Could you tell me what role Tibetans play in the political administration of their region?

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

Tibetans have representation in the local government of the Tibet Autonomous Region or in counties and prefectures, but their power, their authority, is very limited. For example, the governor of the Tibet Autonomous Region is a Tibetan, but the most powerful position, the party secretary, has always been Chinese.

What is disturbing is that, as per 2002 data, more than 50% of the Communist Party cadres in the Tibet Autonomous Region are Chinese, not Tibetans. That's 2002. It's been 11 years now and the Communist Party cadres, including postmen, are Chinese, not Tibetans.

If you look at the party structure, of the top 13 leaders, seven are Chinese and six are “Tibetans”, but of the six, one is half Tibetan because her father or mother is Chinese, one is married to a Chinese, one has in-laws who are Chinese, and one has a girlfriend who is Chinese. That's how they test their loyalty. It's a token position, but even at that level your representation goes by your blood rather than your capacity.

In that sense, all the way down.... I can share with you the figure of 70-50-40, which is that 70% of business enterprises in Lhasa, the capital city of Tibet, are owned or are run by Chinese; 50%, as I shared, of the Communist Party members are Chinese; and 40% of Tibetans with college and high school degrees are unemployed. That is the situation inside Tibet.

We've been talking mainly about Tibet. With the permission of the chairman, I would also like to highlight the importance of Tibet environmentally. Tibet is vital as far as global warming and climate change are concerned. Tibet is called the “third pole”. After Antarctica and the Arctic, Tibet has the third highest reserve of ice, maybe a little more than Canada. But unlike Antarctica and the Arctic, when it melts, it turns into rivers. Ten major rivers of Asia originate in Tibet. There is the famous Mekong River, which flows from Tibet all the way to Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos; the Salween River; the Brahmaputra River, which flows from Tibet, to India, to Bangladesh. When you read about a flood in Bangladesh, it has direct causality with the deforestation that is taking place in Tibet. Because of the rainfall and the silting, the riverbed rises and causes flooding downstream. Also, major rivers are from Tibet to India to Pakistan. The Yellow River, the cradle of Chinese civilization, and the Yangtze River, two famous rivers of China, originate in Tibet.

Some scientists say that before wars were fought over land, but nowadays wars are fought over energy. Soon wars will be fought over water. It's called “white gold” because it's so precious. Tibet is the source of 10 major rivers of Asia. Because of its having the third highest reserve of ice, climate-wise it has direct consequences for weather in Peru, in Latin America, with the jet stream over Tibet being affected.

So Tibet is vital as far as the environment is concerned.

Tibet also has a lot of natural resources, 130 or so minerals—not as much as Canada, but it has a lot of resources. It's exploited in a very unsound manner, engineering and environmentally. A lot of chemicals are being used. It has a direct relationship to the environment because when the chemicals are used and the minerals are exploited in an open way...when there's rain, the water goes to the river and affects the people downstream. Millions of people in Asia survive on the fishery and agriculture, and Tibet is the source of all these rivers. If they are poisoned or deforestation takes place, it affects millions of people downstream.

So Tibet is environmentally also very important, in addition to democracy and non-violence, as I shared with you.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You still have a minute and a half.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Very well.

Mr. Sangay, which are the most important measures that you would like to see China adopt in order to improve the human rights situation in Tibet?

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

In addition to the several requests that I have made, a report from your committee would go a long way. And if it's possible, the Parliament of Canada could join the United States Senate in passing a resolution or motion on the issue of Tibet. The European Parliament has done that. The Italian Parliament and the French Senate have also passed resolutions on the issue of Tibet.

This is important because the act of self-immolation is a really painful cry by Tibetans, saying “I'm choosing to die and leave so that those people who are left behind, and the humanity left behind, will hear us and give us hope that our suffering and pain and lives do not go in vain.”

A resolution by the Canadian Parliament will be a very clear message to Tibet, inside Tibet, that there is hope—we hear you; we support you; this is what we can do. You will join other members of the international community that regard human rights and democracy as very important, and you will send a clear message. That will be a welcome gesture by the Canadian Parliament.

If you could all form a delegation and request that the Chinese government give access to visit Tibetan areas, that would be another positive gesture for which we would be very appreciative.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Jacob.

With the committee's permission, I just have a couple of questions that have been suggested by our analysts, who are anxious to make sure that we take this opportunity to get some of the key facts from the most authoritative possible source.

I was wondering, Dr. Sangay, if you could tell us.... You talked about the treatment of Tibetans in Tibet, and I realize when you say that, you are referring to those Tibetans who are within the People's Republic of China. But there is the Tibet Autonomous Region, and there are Tibetans who live in some areas that are not part of the autonomous region. I wonder if you could comment on their treatment, as opposed to those who live within the autonomous region.

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

The treatment of Tibetans everywhere—in the Tibet Autonomous Region, and in Kham and Amdo, the traditional provinces of Tibet—is the same. If you look at the protest in 2008, it was in Lhasa, the capital city of Tibet, all the way to Amdo, which is mainly in Qinghai and part of Gansu, and the Kham area, which is mainly in Sichuan and Yunnan. It was widespread. Even the self-immolators have been in Quinghai and Zhuang, and in the Gansu area as well.

Now as far as the definition of Tibet is concerned, the Chinese government tries to create confusion by saying “Oh, Tibet is only the Tibet Autonomous Region, not other areas.” The response is very simple. His Holiness the Dalai Lama was born in Amdo, which is presently in Qinghai. My late father was from Lithang, which is presently in Sichuan. If you go by the definition of the Chinese government, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and my late father are not Tibetans.

If you go by article 4 of the Chinese constitution, it clearly says that wherever “minorities” are living in concentrated communities, the autonomous region can be established. Now, we often say that China does not have the rule of law, but as far as that provision is concerned, they followed it quite effectively. That's because 99% of Uyghurs live in the Qinghai Autonomous Region and 95% of Zhuang live in the Zhuang Autonomous Region. Almost 60% of Hui live in the Xinjiang Autonomous Region. Huis are Chinese Muslims who are scattered in 10 different provinces. They have done a fine gerrymandering to carve out the Xinjiang Autonomous Region for Hui people. Inner Mongolia has around 50% of Mongolians living in one area. They were granted a Mongolian autonomous region because they were nomads. They're scattered in four different provinces.

It's only Tibetans who live in one area, one geographical area, which is called the Tibetan Plateau. It is recognized by Chinese media and Chinese policies as the Tibetan Plateau. Nowadays, when they have meetings on Tibet, they call all the Tibetan leaders, the Tibetan cadres, from the Tibetan Plateau. In effect, they recognize the Tibetan Plateau as Tibet. On the one hand, they call it the Tibet Autonomous Region, but all the adjoining areas they call Tibetan prefectures and Tibetan counties. So in effect the Chinese government does recognize all of the Tibetan Plateau as one Tibetan entity. It's just that geographically they have divided into five different provinces and administratively they have divided into five different administrative regions. Our argument is that from an administrative point of view, it is not effective and not efficient to have five different administrative structures for the same people with the same culture, and even the same economy and geography. The definition of Tibet administration is that Tibet is a traditional Tibet.

The Chinese government has come up with the argument that if you look at the map of China, the traditional Tibet constitutes almost one-fourth of China. That's a huge tract of land, so Tibetans can claim such a large tract of land in China. But if you look at the Xinjiang Autonomous Region, which is one-sixth of China, they have already granted one-sixth of China as the Xinjiang Autonomous Region, and almost one-ninth of China is the Mongolia Autonomous Region. It's only the Tibetan area that is divided into six different provinces, in violation of article 4 of the Chinese constitution and the Minority Nationality Act of 1984.

Our definition of Tibet is very much in sync with the Chinese constitution and their own implementation as far as the Xinjiang Autonomous Region is concerned. Demographically, where 90% to 95% of the population live in one area, it's only Tibetans where more than 50% are outside of the Tibet Autonomous Region, in violation of their own constitution.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Is there a number that you feel confident is accurate as to the Tibetans who live in all of these areas put together—the Tibetan population, as a whole, within the PRC?

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

The Tibetan administration maintains that there are 6 million Tibetans. This figure is being disputed by the Chinese government, but even by their own data they estimate that anywhere from 5.5 million to 5.7 million are Tibetan nationals. Then again, because you can't do a demographic survey, you can't arrive at an exact figure, so our estimated figure is 6 million Tibetans.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

I want to thank you for coming here as a witness today. You've been extraordinarily informative, and we are all very grateful that you were able to be at this committee.

If there are no further matters, we are adjourned.