Evidence of meeting #7 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was coptic.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nabil Malek  President, Canadian Egyptian Organization for Human Rights
Ashraf Ramelah  President and Founder, Voice of the Copts

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Welcome to the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today, November 15, 2011, marks our seventh meeting.

We are discussing the persecution of the Copt community in Egypt. Today as a witness we have Mr. Nabil Malek, president of the Canadian Egyptian Organization for Human Rights. Ashraf Ramelah from Voice of the Copts is joining us from Allentown, Pennsylvania.

We'll start with Mr. Malek, and then we will go to Ashraf Ramelah.

Mr. Sweet.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

I'm sorry, I didn't want to interrupt the witnesses.

Mr. Cotler has a motion that he's having redrafted. He has given us a copy, but it will be substantially the same in content. I want to make sure you will assess the time allotment today based on the fact that we'll probably need about five minutes at the end.

It's my understanding that the NDP has a copy of this motion as well.

We'll need about five minutes at the end, after Mr. Cotler gets the revised version to us so we can approve it. This is a critical matter that needs to be moved so we can make it public.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Let's leave five minutes at the end. That means we'll have to wrap up the questions at a certain time.

I'm assuming that everybody agrees with this.

Mr. Malek, I invite you to begin your presentation. We normally give our witnesses around seven minutes to make an opening presentation, and then we go to questions.

1:10 p.m.

Nabil Malek President, Canadian Egyptian Organization for Human Rights

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The persecution of the Coptic Christians in Egypt is a complicated matter. As a matter of fact, it has historical and legal grounds. The Copts in Egypt face swelling problems, obliterating their identity, limiting their progress and welfare, and even threatening their existence. These problems include restrictions on their freedom of religion and the right to practise their religion, forced conversion to Islam, recurrence of attacks on their village communities and individuals, equality before the law, and political marginalization, discrimination in education and employment, as well as suppression of their culture. It has been noticed that under the authoritarian Egyptian regimes that have held power since 1952, the major trend for the Copts has been rejection and segregation.

I won't be able to cover all the restrictions and the massive attacks against the Copts, but I will give a few examples. Embedding Islam in Egypt's constitution as the state religion and the Sharia Islamic law as the main source of legislation in article 2 seems to have practically curbed if not outright negated some aspects of freedom, including freedom of religion, thought, and expression. Also, basing the state and its legal system on a particular religion seems to have negatively influenced the social environment, allowing the creation of different classes of citizenship and exasperating national discord between different faith communities and groups. It further undermines women's rights to equality with men.

I will give some examples. While article 40 of the Egyptian constitution stipulates that all citizens are equal before the law, and they have equal public rights and duties without discrimination on the basis of sex, etc., the Egyptian judiciary discriminates against the Christian divorcee whose spouse adopts Islam, mostly out of expediency to get a speedy divorce, by converting underage children born of the Christian couple to Islam. In addition, the children's custody is accorded to the converted parent. In contrast, if a Muslim parent converts to Christianity or leaves Islam and adopts no other religion, he or she must be divorced by law. In this case, too, the kids are placed under the custody of the Muslim parent. This situation creates a lot of problems and ends in massive attacks when such a thing happens.

In terms of equality before the law and the freedom of religion, practices belie both the text and the spirit of the constitution as well as international human rights laws. Furthermore, forced conversion of Christian minors when one of their parents converts to Islam is not only discriminatory, it is an attack on the rights of the child and on the foundation of the Christian family. It also presents, in this context, a serious violation of the collective rights of the Coptic Christian minority.

With respect to freedom of belief and the freedom to practise religious rights, which are formally accorded by article 46, Christians are faced with a maze of official discriminatory conditions when it comes to building, repairing, or renovating their churches, and sometimes their institutions. These conditions are administrative rules issued in 1936, and they have their roots in the famous historical restrictions known as “conditions of Umar”, which date back to more than 1,000 years ago.

All this creates a culture that the masses in the street cannot but follow. That's where the problem starts.

Of course, the conversion of non-Muslim natives to Islam has always been part of the Muslim state legal system. But today, after the revival of Islam in Egypt—which in fact began in the early years of the 20th century and has been emboldened over the past 30 years—forced conversion of members of the Coptic minority has been added to the list of violations.

One of the reports of the U.S. Human Rights Watch stated: “Pressure on Christians to convert to Islam...is sometimes accompanied by promises of jobs, promotions, wives and apartments.” Then it quotes a highly placed source in the Coptic Church as saying, “There are hundreds of these cases.”

In the same year, the London-based organization Jubilee issued another report related to this issue.

Another report, which is very important, was issued by the special rapporteur on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography. He referred to an appeal by another rapporteur regarding information on Coptic women who had been reportedly kidnapped and sexually assaulted by known Muslim groups financed by Saudi Arabian sources. According to this report, victims were reportedly subjected to continuous threats and rape to force them to convert to Islam and live with a member of the group.

In November 2010 a report by Christian Solidarity International and the Coptic Foundation for Human Rights documented 25 cases of these alleged forced conversions to Islam.

Regardless of the government of Egypt's claims that no force or coercion was used in most of the cases of Coptic young women's disappearances, conversions to Islam, and marriages to Muslim men, the facts—official and non-official persistent discrimination, persecution, and intolerance propaganda against members of the Coptic minority, coupled with the legal inequality before the law and the bias and the cover-up of such cases by the police and other institutions—do not absolve the Egyptian regime and its agents of such multiple violations of minority rights in Egypt.

Regarding inequality before the law, I can mention a recent case that happened in upper Egypt, in the city of Qina, when a Copt who was the only governor appointed by the old regime of Mubarak was replaced by another one who happened to be a Copt. The Islamists took to the streets and stopped the movement of the train from the south to north and vice-versa until this appointed governor humiliatingly resigned.

The ruling of the Supreme Council, which runs the affairs of the country today, couldn't do anything against these groups. That doesn't look abnormal, though, when we know that no Copt has ever been employed in the presidential administration, the state intelligence apparatus, or as a police commissioner, city mayor, public university president or dean. The Copts in Egypt are excluded from all the high-ranking positions in Egypt.

Another important area that makes a schism, a division, between the majority and the minority is the parallel education system created in 1961. It is not permitted for any Copt to join or to enrol in this system of Al-Azhar University. All letters and sciences are in the curriculum, but the Copts are not allowed to enrol.

There are 500,000 students in this system, and thousands of them come from foreign countries to study for free in Egypt, while the Copts themselves are not allowed to enrol in these institutions. These institutions accept undergraduates who have a low level of achievement. They give them a better education separately from the public institutions where the Copts can join.

The Copts have a culture that is rooted in history, in millenniums. Their language was prevented from being used for centuries, in spite of many appeals to the government to create a chair for Coptic studies in one of the many universities in Cairo. Over the years we've been asking for that. This is also part of the Egyptian culture. There are layers in the Egyptian culture, but the Coptic culture is excluded from the history books and the rest of the culture of the country.

I come to the recurrence of escalation. Violence has been now taking a serious turn under the military rule, where we can see that such attacks coincided with the rise of Islam in the 1980s. Also, the pattern of recurrence confirmed that the political regime's manipulation of Islamic sentiments in the struggle against Islamists for legitimacy was a key factor. This is a very serious situation, because the Copts are in a crossfire with a regime that uses Islam to fight Muslim extremists, and the fight here is only for power. The Copts are paying the price, and it is very dangerous because it has gotten out of hand lately. And it brought the collapse of the undemocratic regime of Hosni Mubarak.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I appreciate the importance of what you're saying. I should just notice that you're up to 13 minutes now, and we probably need to conclude your comments for the moment. Perhaps you could provide further commentary in response to questions.

1:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Egyptian Organization for Human Rights

Nabil Malek

Thank you.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Let's turn now to our second witness, Mr. Ramelah, please. We would like to hear from you now, if you could.

1:20 p.m.

Dr. Ashraf Ramelah President and Founder, Voice of the Copts

Good afternoon, Chairman. Thank you for the invitation. I am honoured to appear before the members of the subcommittee on human rights to give testimony concerning the plight of Copts in Egypt.

The situation in Egypt concerning Copts is a little bit complicated, and I would like to clarify a few things here. First of all, there is no change of regime. Since January 26, the regime of Mr. Mubarak has continued. Technically, many of the military were appointed by Mr. Mubarak 20 years ago and they served him. The military that at this moment rules the country is concerned about its own interests and protecting the old regime.

January 26 was a great event for Egypt. Unfortunately, based upon the culture that started back in 1952 that was co-opted by Mr. Nasser, followed by Sadat and then by Mubarak, they increased the teaching of Islam in Egypt. Mubarak used to play good guy and bad guy. When he came to the United States or Canada or visited western countries, he posed as a peacemaker while he was putting oil on the fire and killing Copts, using his regime's police fascist system.

The discrimination against Copts in Egypt is over 1,400 years long and started back in 651, when Muslims occupied Egypt. The situation now is worse. I'm not trying to make a comparison with Mr. Mubarak's regime. Mubarak was bad for Copts and also for people against his regime. But right now the country is running without any control or any law. The system is going to protect Mubarak. This comedy situation of bringing Mubark to trial is in bad taste. They are trying to tease the western countries by showing they have a new democratic system, but they do not.

At this moment, Copts are suffering more. I would like to explain what happened on October 9 against the peaceful demonstration of Copts that ended in killing, as reported in The New York Times, 56 Copts in Tahrir Square. If we look back, between January 26 and October 9, the Muslim Brotherhood as well as the Salafi Muslims demonstrated 15 to 20 times and the military never stood against them. It never oppressed them. It never attacked them.

The demonstration of October 9 was concerned with a church called St. George's, located in upper Egypt in a county called El-Marinab. This church, after various requests to be rebuilt—because there was danger for people who went there to pray—got authorization for rebuilding. But because of the doctrine of Islam that doesn't allow the rebuilding of a church once it is demolished or destroyed, they attacked the church.

The police stood there watching the attack against the church without moving a finger.

The Copts finally decided to protest, and ten days before they protested in Tahrir Square they were attacked by the police, and various protesters went to hospital. I believe three of them were killed by the police system.

On October 9 they moved from Chubra about 2.5 kilometres toward Tahrir with no problem at all. It was peaceful. They were singing Christian songs and carrying crosses. They were asking the actual regime to protect their right to worship whatever they believed in. But the Egyptian media started to charge the Muslims against the Christians, saying on the Egyptian TV and radio that they needed Muslims to go out to protect the army. Once the protesters reached Tahrir Square, armoured cars and tanks started to go against them with the intent to kill them.

I am in possession of various pictures of the tragedy that I refused to show to anybody. You can see people with their bodies cut in half. Whatever happened there at that time needs to go to the International Criminal Court against Mr. Tantawi. I hope, Mr. Chairman, you can bring this request to the Canadian government. We need Mr. Tantawi to stand in front of the ICC for what happened on October 9.

Copts in Egypt, like our friend Nabil, are still suffering from the invasion. They are still using the Umrani decree from the barbaric Bedouin law that does not allow Christians to have any rights. In fact, the word “dhimmi” that Muslims use a lot means a person who doesn't have any rights or responsibilities.

In 2011, I believe the world has to stand up and understand that there are more than 17 million Christians in Egypt suffering discrimination and persecution. The Muslim plan is to cleanse the Middle East of Christians.

In a couple of weeks Egypt will be holding an election. All the world believes that this will be a democratic election. I believe it will be another electoral fraud by Mr. Tantawi to keep his people in place to protect himself and his interests. In fact, at the beginning of this month there was a new article about the constitution explaining that the army is above any law. The army has to have all its financing and decisions, and no one, politically speaking--neither Egyptians nor the Egyptian Parliament--in the future can decide what the army will do.

A few things occurred after January 25. We see that there were various sharia courts in Egypt. They cut one of the ears off a Christian man, because rumour said he had a relationship with a Muslim lady. Another young man was thrown from a fourth-floor balcony for the same reason.

Finally, there was a 17-year-old kid named Nabil Labib. He was killed inside a school just because his Muslim teacher asked him to cover the tattooed cross on his right hand. Nabil refused to cover the cross. He was attacked by his teacher and other Muslim students. The only information that we have is that he ran to the bathroom and they followed him and after that they took him to the principal's office. Nobody tried to do anything. The ambulance arrived after one hour and took the dead body to the hospital.

Finally, just to indicate that the same regime of Mubarak is still working in Egypt, another Copt called Maikel Nabil, a blogger, wrote that he didn't accept the military regime ruling Egypt. He was taken into custody and on October 25 the current regime acted the same way as Mr. Mubarak and Sadat and Nasser. They took Maikel Nabil and they put him inside a psychiatric hospital.

What's going to happen in the future to the Christian Copts, God only knows. What I would like to ask you here is for the international community to be very active politically, economically, and maybe militarily against the Egyptian regime, and to protect not only the Copts there but also the other people who are against the regime, the secular people who are suffering.

There must also be control of the aid that Canada, the United States, and European countries send to Egypt, because a lot of this aid is going in directions other than where it was directed to go.

Lastly, I would like to ask the chairman about two ways of controlling immigration by western countries such as the United States and Canada. The first one is to generate a law to help Copts who would like to escape from Egypt for their safety. It also means the other side of this law has to be controlling who from the Muslim community is coming, so that we don't open our doors to those who come to our western countries with another intent, not to work and to find a better life, but to come here to force Islamization and sharia law in the west.

I don't know if I still have time, but I sense that I am out of time. I don't want to take advantage of anybody.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You're actually out of time, but we appreciate that. You've actually taken exactly the same length of time as the last speaker did. Thank you very much.

We'll now turn to questions from members of the committee. We have five people on the list, but I assume we'll want all six on there. In order to accommodate everybody in the amount of time we have left, we're going to have very brief four-minute rounds.

We will begin with you, Mr. Hiebert. It's probably best to have one question and to indicate which of the two witnesses you want to answer it.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Am I starting?

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Yes, you are.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Thank you.

Thank you both for being here.

I've been led to believe that with the elections happening shortly, election observers have not been allowed or not been invited to participate. Is that your understanding? The question is for either of you.

1:35 p.m.

President and Founder, Voice of the Copts

Dr. Ashraf Ramelah

I don't understand the question.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Have election observers been invited to monitor the upcoming elections?

1:35 p.m.

President and Founder, Voice of the Copts

Dr. Ashraf Ramelah

No, they are not allowing anything. When I was talking about electoral fraud, this was the reason behind it, because if they're really looking to have a clear, pure election, why do they have concerns that any foreign identity can come and control the election.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Do you know, can you confirm, whether there are any parties running in the election, at least in part, on a promise to protect religious minorities?

1:40 p.m.

President and Founder, Voice of the Copts

Dr. Ashraf Ramelah

No, I don't have any official news about that. There are a lot of rumours. Various parties are playing sounds that they are going to protect the Christians, but I consider it the same as Islamic taqiyya, so I don't believe it, to be honest with you.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

As has been pointed out by Mr. Malek, there are constitutional protections within the Egyptian constitution. I'm wondering if you expect these constitutional protections to be upheld. Or do you expect a revision to the constitution after the election?

1:40 p.m.

President, Canadian Egyptian Organization for Human Rights

Nabil Malek

This depends on the result of the election. If the elections bring a majority of the Brotherhood and the Salafis, we will have a big problem. The future will be bleak for the Copts and secularists and women. We don't know where we're going.

There should be international monitoring. We still have time to do that. Canada has done monitoring for the Ukrainians and other communities by sending some Canadians of that ethnicity. So it could happen. It might be more welcome than letting Canadian-born or non-Egyptian Canadians go to do that. I think we should look at that.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

This is my last question.

You've both mentioned a number of atrocities or incidents for which prosecutions should have occurred. Can either of you mention whether these crimes against the Copts have been prosecuted by the justice system?

1:40 p.m.

President, Canadian Egyptian Organization for Human Rights

Nabil Malek

I didn't cover that because of the limitation of time, but all the commissions founded by this regime did not continue their investigations, and when they did an investigation, they did not take the second step of starting a prosecution. They were fake, sham investigations, all of them.

That's why they reoccurred many times. Many of the culprits haven't been arrested. They say that they don't know them or that kids set fire to a property and whatever. A very small number of cases over more than 30 years were brought to justice, and the sentences were very lenient and not according to the law and the constitution.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

We'll go to Mr. Marston.

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Mr. Ramelah, thank you for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

One of the things I'd like to say is that in Canada we have 1.2 million Muslims. If you look at Canadian papers, you rarely see any of them having any difficulty. There have been concerns about whether some want to bring sharia law to Canada. By far the majority of those I've spoken to within my own community don't want it.

There are over 30 million non-Muslims in the rest of Canada, so I'm not overly concerned about a sudden change here. Having said that, we are very aware of the discrimination that happens in Egypt, Iraq, and Iran against Christians, particularly those in the Coptic Church.

I want to go to your commentary. You talked about one lad having an ear cut off. Under sharia law, if you commit adultery, and it's proven, you're executed. When you talked about the lad being thrown off the balcony for a similar offence and the student who was murdered, that sounds more to me like the vigilante action of people, as opposed to the actual application of sharia law. Would that be the case?

1:40 p.m.

President and Founder, Voice of the Copts

Dr. Ashraf Ramelah

Yes, sir.

Also, since you bring up the 1.2 million Muslims in Canada, I know there are Muslims around the world, outside of Islamic countries, and they live in freedom and they have all the rights as citizens of that place. But what happens when you hear what they say inside this country is that they are oppressed—

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Excuse me, sir. Could I get you to answer the question that I asked? In those three particular incidents, were they vigilante actions or a sharia court?