Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Good afternoon.

We are the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today, November 22, 2001, we hold our ninth meeting.

I'll just observe that we have a sufficiently large quorum for the purpose of receiving testimony. We actually do not have a sufficiently large quorum for purposes of dealing with motions. That is relevant to any attempt to deal with a motion, so we'll hold off on that for a minute, if you don't mind.

I'll mention to members of the subcommittee that we are televised today. As I always remind people in moments like this, it's best to look your best and not do anything you don't want permanently recorded.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chair, four people denote a quorum. I had conversations with everybody regarding Dr. Jalal and her visit. If you wanted to—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Just hang on a second. We're about to answer your question, Mr. Sweet.

Seeing as you're going to have unanimous consent, why don't we just wait a couple of minutes? Ève is going to arrive, and then we'll be all set to go. Would that be good?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chair, that's totally fine. I just didn't want to interrupt the testimony. I will go to your leadership.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

All right.

What I was about to say is that today with us we have a guest who's been here a number of times before. Reverend El Shafie is the president and the founder of One Free World International.

You're always a friend to this committee. We're glad to see you here, Reverend El Shafie. I would encourage you to begin your testimony, please.

[The Reverend Majed El Shafie, Founder and President, One Free World International]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank all of you for having me here. It's always a pleasure to see all of you again.

Today I will be discussing with you the human rights situation in Egypt and Iraq. I will also touch briefly on the situation of minorities in Iran.

Let's start with Egypt. After the so-called Arab Spring--and I have no idea who started calling it Arab Spring--the world very slowly but surely started to discover that Arab Spring is nothing but a cold deadly winter for the minorities. The situation in Egypt, especially for the Christian minority and the rest of the minorities, is that, as we speak, since the start of the Egyptian revolution on January 25, we have seen and our sources have monitored 12 major attacks against the Christian community in Egypt. When I say 12 major incidents, that doesn't mean that is all the incidents there have been. Our resources indicate that there have been over 36 attacks, but the 12 major attacks were those that were big enough to make it into the media, into the news.

One of the major attacks I will be discussing today was that on a peaceful demonstration on October 9, 2011, which is known as the massacre of Maspero. Before I speak about the massacre of Maspero and what's happened in Maspero, I want to backtrack a little bit.

On September 30 in Aswan province, 20 imams in the mosques around Christian areas made a violent call to attack the Christians there. Three thousand Muslim extremists attacked the Christian villages and towns in the province of Aswan. That happened September 30. After these attacks the Christians were upset, so they came out in a peaceful demonstration on October 9. I just want to be clear that it was a peaceful demonstration on October 9. The Egyptian army faced the demonstrators with live ammunition, and with armed cars drove over the people, killing them. These pictures show some of the footage of the victims of Maspero.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

One moment, please, Reverend.

Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It's impossible for us to see them from here. It's not something I really want to look at, but could you pass them around, please?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We'll get someone to do that for you. Just remain there, and we'll have someone take care of that.

Thank you.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

I want to warn all of you that some of the pictures are very graphic, so if you don't have the heart for it don't look at them.

After this attack, over 27 Christians were killed in these peaceful demonstrations. Over 300 were injured. Some of the injured couldn't go to another hospital because the hospitals in the area rejected them, except one hospital, the Coptic hospital. This is the truth and the reality. The police attacked the Coptic hospital after that and arrested some of the injured out of that hospital. This is only one of the major attacks.

To mark the 40-day anniversary of the Maspero massacre, the Christians again went on a peaceful demonstration. They were attacked again in Shoubra and in Cairo. That was to mark the 40-day anniversary of the Maspero attack.

On October 16, 2011, after the Maspero attack, a 17-year-old student by the name of Ayman Nabil Labib was wearing a cross. His teacher requested that he remove the cross. When he refused to remove the cross, the teacher and the students attacked him. They beat him to death. That happened as well after the Maspero attack on October 16.

Some of these incidents you will find in our Egyptian report that will be given to you, and I'm sure it's being translated right now into French as well.

When we speak about Iraq and the situation in Iraq, two months ago I visited Iraq. I visited Baghdad. I was accompanied by one MP, Mr. John Weston, of Vancouver. I was accompanied as well, as part of my delegation, by Senator Don Meredith, and I was accompanied by Mr. Robiah Elias from the Iraqi community, and Martin Himel, from the Canadian media.

Two months ago I visited the Iraqi capital and I had a meeting with the high officials in Iraq, such as the Deputy Prime Minister, the Vice-President of Iraq, the President of the Iraqi Parliament, the Iraqi Minister of Human Rights. I will say that if there is a minister of human rights in any country, that means they have no human rights at all, and they are using the minister more or less to cover up the situation there. As well, we met with the environment minister of Iraq.

When we speak about the minority in Iraq, let's start with the Christians. More than half of the Christian Iraqi community were forced to leave their country or were killed. Here we are facing the beginning of a genocide. This is not simply regular ethnic cleansing; this is the beginning of a genocide in Iraq.

We visited one of the churches, Our Lady of Salvation. As an example, last October five terrorists entered Our Lady of Salvation Church. They attacked the church and killed over 54 Christian worshippers, including the priest.

Mr. Chair, I have here with me some of the bullets that were taken from the church and from the victims. Some of them still have the blood of the innocents on them.

Ladies and gentlemen, for four hours the terrorists were killing the Christians without any interference from the Iraqi police--for four complete hours. After that, when the Iraqi police entered the church, they did not aid the people or help the people. They immediately started to collect the money and the gold from the victims, instead of helping them. This happened in Iraq last October.

It is not only the Christians in Iraq who are facing persecution, it is also the Sabians and the Mandaeans. More than 90% of the Sabians and the Mandaeans were killed in Iraq. The population of the Sabians and the Mandaeans in Iraq was about 50,000 to 60,000 in the year 2003. In the year 2010, the population was between 3,500 and 7,000.

As well, besides this, you find the Yazidi, and they are facing persecution in Iraq. Of course, in the Baha'i community in Iraq and in Egypt there are a total of 2,000 people in each country. Their dilemma is that they are facing persecution. They cannot have any identification cards, so they are not recognized by their governments in Egypt or Iraq. That means they cannot get married. They cannot divorce. They cannot bury their dead. They cannot buy properties. And that's what we are facing

The solution.... We can read the report that was prepared by One Free World International. And once again, we have two reports, one about Egypt and one about Iraq, both of them in the English language. They were sent to the clerk. I think that some of it is still in translation. If any of you want these copies in English, I already have them. I assume that they are being translated into French as of now.

There are many solutions to this dilemma that we're facing, such as confronting this government in the international fora, such as supporting the refugees and opening Canadian doors for immigration to welcome these refugees in the camps, such as encouraging on the ground of Iraq and Egypt the programs that are protecting women's rights and the minority rights. But the recommendation I want to focus on the most right now is tying our aid and our international trade to the improvement of human rights in these countries. I'm not saying cut it. I'm saying tie the aid and the international trade to the improvement of human rights in these countries. What I mean by that is if a country has disrespected the minority or women's rights, we can use the aid and the international trade to increase it or decrease it. It depends on how they are respecting these rights.

For example, there is over $2 billion of international trade between Canada and Iraq--over $2 billion. Between the years 2003 and 2010 the Canadian government has given $300 million in aid to Iraq. I have no record of where they spent the $300 million. I tried to go on the Department of Foreign Affairs website. I tried to go everywhere. I don't know where the $300 million was spent in Iraq.

Even in Egypt, the aid to Egypt is around $18 million and there is over $900 million in international trade between Canada and Egypt. I have no record as well of where the $18 million went.

Lawrence Cannon used to be our foreign affairs minister. He went to Egypt and spoke about Canada wanting to give $11 million in the next five years to encourage the revolution in Egypt. With all due respect, I don't know how he can encourage a government that is killing the innocent.

In the year 2009 this was the first time that the Egyptian government attacked the Christians straight on, head on. Usually they will use extremist groups. They will use extremist groups and they will hide behind it. But for the first time, actually, the Egyptian army attacked the Christian community head on just because they went on a peaceful demonstration.

We have to connect our aid and our international trade today to the improvement of human rights in these countries. Once we do this there will be improvement, because these governments want the money. I don't believe in giving any government a blank cheque. With all due respect, this is the Canadian people's money. This is not the Canadian government's money; this is the Canadian people's money. I don't think we should give them any of this aid, any of this international trade, until we see an improvement in human rights, and it should be connected with this.

In closing, I thank you for the opportunity. I will take your questions and answers.

Mr. Chair, if you can give me the closing two minutes, I would appreciate that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We will make sure, Reverend, that you have a couple of minutes left to wrap up after we've gone through our round of questions.

I do appreciate, by the way, your being as timely as you have.

Perhaps, Mr. Sweet, I could turn to you first.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for being able to clear this motion off.

I think all members are in agreement that the subcommittee invite Dr. Massouda Jalal and her associates to appear before the subcommittee to discuss the issue of women's rights in Afghanistan. The meeting would take place to coincide with Dr. Jalal's travel to Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

That's a motion. Is there any discussion on that? Do we have agreement on that?

[An hon. member]

I'll be supporting it.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay. In that case, that's been passed unanimously.

(Motion agreed to)

Mr. Sweet, you also have the floor for questions to start with. Please fire away. You have six minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

And I want to thank Reverend Majed El Shafie for being here with us.

I also want to draw to the attention of the committee that our former colleague is here, Mario Silva, who we've all worked with. We appreciate the fact that he spoke at the interfaith breakfast this morning and did a very good job, as well.

Reverend El Shafie, your birthplace is Egypt, right?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

That's correct.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Do you still have family there?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Are they safe?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

I don't have a relationship with my family because they disowned me once I converted from Islam to Christianity when I was 18 years old.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay.

On that note, the history of Christian persecution in Egypt is well documented. Yet in this uprising they stood shoulder to shoulder with other protesters to bring in change. So they had expectations.

Could you explain to this committee what the expectations were and how the Christian community at large—Coptic, as well—feels today with the situation spiralling out of control as it is?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

The expectation was freedom, freedom of religion. Mr. Sweet, we are not here to speak against Muslims; we are here because of the persecution of the Christian minorities. I am here because I'm against the extremists, wherever they are.

When the revolution started on January 25, the Christian community stood side by side with the Muslim community fighting the dictator regime, and the expectation was that our rights would be protected and we'd be able to live with freedom of religion. You cannot build democracy without freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is the foundation of democracy. Without it, there is no democracy; it's as simple as that. The reality here is that if you took their faith from men or women, they'd have nothing remaining to believe in.

When the uprising started, everybody called it—especially the media in the west, and I believe the Americans started it—Arab Spring. What Arab Spring? What Arab Spring? The reality is that when you take out a dictatorship like Mubarak—and I am completely agreeing with taking out Mubarak as a leader, because he was a dictator and he committed many crimes against humanity—you create a political vacuum. The political vacuum can only be occupied by the most organized group there. Sadly, the most organized group there, besides the army, is the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization. I need to make it clear that the Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization.

When you have a society like the Egyptian society, 30% to 40% of the Egyptian society is illiterate. They don't know how to write or read their own name, so how do they read a constitution? Even if you reform the constitution, how do they read it? They don't know how to write or read their own name.

So democracy cannot be built between day and night. Democracy has to be step by step.

The reality on the ground right now is that an organization like the Muslim Brotherhood is using this political vacuum to start to control the country. I am sorry to say, Mr. Sweet, that on February 6 Lawrence Cannon, our former Minister of Foreign Affairs, welcomed a talk between the Egyptian government and the Muslim Brotherhood. This was on the record of CTV on February 6. This was a press conference that he did, and he welcomed talks between the Egyptian government and the Muslim Brotherhood as an opposition.

The Muslim Brotherhood is the foundation of al-Qaeda and the foundation of Hamas. Basically, their doctrine has built this other organization that we see here today. A Muslim Brotherhood leader today indicated that they will never accept a Christian president or a woman president. Where is the human right? Where is the human right in dealing with a group like this, who disagree with a woman leader or a Christian leader?

The truth and the reality is that democracy without education dies. Education is the oxygen for democracy. What we are seeing today is not an Arab Spring; it's a cold, deadly winter.

Thank you, sir.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'd love to stay on Egypt, but because we're talking about the two subjects.... And by the way, Reverend, I agree with you that freedom of religion is at the apex of all. If you have freedom of religion, you have freedom of assembly, freedom of conscience, freedom of speech.

The Iraqi Christians lived in relative peace in Iraq up until a few years ago. Could you explain quickly to the committee what's changed there now in Iraq?