Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2011

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We're actually out of time on this round. Sorry.

Mr. Hiebert is next, and Professor Cotler is on deck.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

It's good to see you again, Reverend El Shafie. You've always been an excellent witness before this committee, enlightening us as to what's happening around the world. I appreciate your testimony today.

I just wanted to draw your attention and the attention of those who are listening to the statement by our Minister of Foreign Affairs, John Baird, after what transpired in Egypt. In part, he said, representing the Government of Canada, that freedom of religion is a fundamental human right and a vital building block for healthy democracies, that people of faith must be able to practise and worship in peace and security, and that religious extremism has no place in modern society and in the new Egypt.

Speaking of the new Egypt, there was a witness before the foreign affairs committee about a month ago, who chose to remain unnamed, who made the following statement, and I quote:

I'm not too sure we can describe what's happening in the Arab world as the Arab Spring. I would call it Islam Spring. And we have to pay attention to that, because spreading from Tunisia, Algeria, and Saudi Arabia, and all around that area, they're all adopting sharia law.

You have a history or a background as a native Egyptian. Sharia law has been promoted within Egypt more recently as a future constitutional amendment. We've heard testimony before our committee recently about that. I'm just wondering if you could enlighten us as to what impact, if it were to be adopted, that would have on religious freedom in Egypt.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

In my opinion, it would be a disaster. I will explain to you why. I am a very firm believer in the separation between religion and the state. It doesn't matter what religion. When you mix them together, that's when you basically put... If the sharia becomes the law, the source of the Egyptian constitution, you will end up with a lot of persecution happening to the minorities: Christians, Baha-'is, and others. You will end up with a lot of violations of women's rights. The women will be forced to wear Islamic dress and so on and so forth. Her work will be affected, as well as the way her husband treats her, in addition to the relationship of the husband, wife, and children. In the end, I believe that the peace agreement between Egypt and Israel will be affected. That's a problem, because it will put the whole region in a war.

I'm not saying the people who want to live by sharia law are bad people. Let them live by the sharia law. That's fine. I am a Christian man. I live in my home as a Christian man. I go to my church as a Christian. That's just my home. I live as a Christian man at home, I go to my church, and I worship the same way. It's not about the debate on religion. It's about freedom of religion.

The separation between the state and religion is extremely important. Don't mix them together. That's my point of view.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

With the downfall of Mubarak, and now the public protests calling for the downfall of the interim military government, I'm wondering if you could tell us what would happen. Who do you think would replace the interim military government if the protesters were to get their way?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

My fear is that a big part of it will be from the Muslim Brotherhood. They are the most organized group. I am sure there would be an opposition. I'm sure there would be a secular party that would take part in the election. But I have a feeling that the majority will be from the Muslim Brotherhood.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Turning to Iraq, in your opinion, who's primarily responsible for the attacks on Christians in Iraq? What motivates these attacks?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

The attacks are not only on Christians, it's the Christians and the rest of the minorities. What motivates these attacks is the fact that they are different and the fact that they consider them as infidels or a person who is different in belief or religion from them. What mostly motivates this as well is partly the agenda of emptying the Middle East of other minorities. Basically, it is to kick them out of the land.

Christian roots in Iraq and Egypt go back way before Islam. Right now we are seeing that people are leaving. The people are forced to leave. The lack of protection we are seeing from the government is really alarming. It is alarming that we are not seeing the government protect them or do anything to support them. In my opinion, the fact that they come from different beliefs and the fact that they want to basically control them is mainly the reason for their persecution.

Also, another important part is that Christianity in Iraq is seen as the American religion and the religion of the west. They consider them as cooperators, or traitors. This is also another element that adds to the reasons for their persecution, because they are Christians like the western religion.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you.

Mr. Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm pleased that reference was made to what occurred in Iraq in 1941, the Farhud massacre. It is now the 70th anniversary of it, and it has gone largely unacknowledged, so I'm pleased that reference was made to it.

The question I want to put has to do with a particular individual who emerged as a kind of symbol of the Egyptian Arab Spring. I'm referring to Michael Nabil, a 26-year-old blogger who spoke so hopefully about the Egyptian Arab Spring in Tahrir Square, in his statement in which he mentions that the army and the people are “of one hand”; in other words, the army and the people are working together. He then witnessed the suppression by the army of civilians and protesters and the like and then said that the army and the people are no longer of one hand.

For that he was illegally tried, convicted, and sentenced to a three-year imprisonment. As we are meeting here today, he is in the 91st day of a hunger strike. His life is hanging by a thread.

Do you regard his case as a symbol of the failure of the Egyptian Arab Spring? Also, do you believe that the fact that he happens to be a Christian Copt who supported the normalization of relations between Israel and Egypt contributed in any way to his conviction and imprisonment, in this situation in which he finds himself today?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Absolutely. I am completely in agreement with you.

Actually, there are two bloggers who are in prison right now just because they criticized the military council. You have Michael Nabil and you have as well Alaa Abd El Fattah. Both of them criticized the military council and ended up in prison just for criticizing.

Where are the principles of the resolution? Where is the democracy? Where is the freedom of speech? Absolutely, they are symbolic.

As long as Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, who is the head of the military council, is in power in Egypt, I don't think this will change at all.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I have to leave.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay. Thank you.

We turn now to Ms. Grewal, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, chair, and thank you, Reverend El Shafie, for your time and your presentation.

I have three very small questions. My first one is, could you tell us how religious discrimination affects the daily lives and activities of the Coptic Christians in Egypt?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

In my Egyptian report you will find more examples of attacks. Some are examples of major attacks, and some of them are small attacks. But let's speak about examples that are happening. Some of them are actually from here in Toronto, and we needed to prove them.

One of the gentlemen, by the name of Magdi Youssef, had a library and he had a Muslim worker in the library. Somehow, the Muslim worker got hold of a book about Christianity and started to read it. His family thought that Magdi Youssel had tried to convert the gentleman, and he had not. His shop was burned, he was poisoned, the authorities arrested him, and he was tortured. He escaped to Canada, and after that, the case.... You will find his story on CTV, because we took his story from there.

To live daily in fear or with day-by-day harassment.... You will be able to identify most of the Christians in Egypt, because there is a tattooed cross on their hands, or they are wearing a cross. Even the national identity card of Egypt has to say whether you are Muslim or Christian. So it's easy to monitor them, easy to know who is who. When this harassment happens, it can affect their job, their daily life.... It can affect many things.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Why would the Iranian government see Christian groups as a threat to the regime?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Are we talking about Iran?

One of the major things that happened when we were in Iraq and we confronted the Iraqi government.... As I said, I was accompanied by one MP and one senator, both of them from the Conservative Party. I sent an invitation to the Liberals and the NDP to accompany us as well.

When we discussed the matter with the Iraqi regime and confronted them with all of this evidence—and we had a recommendation to the Iraqi government and we raised all the subjects we are speaking about right now.... I am not the kind of human rights activist who is in hiding; I will be right in your face and tell you: here are the facts. We sat down with them, and they said that these facts are true. They admitted it. The vice-president of Iraq admitted that this situation is happening.

The problem with the Iraqi regime is that they will blame the old regime for these attacks, or will blame Syria and Saudi Arabia. But when it comes to Iran, they wouldn't speak about Iran, because most of them....

Now, I know for a fact, madam, and I cannot indicate where my sources are, that before they appoint an Iraqi minister, Iran has to approve it first.

The sad reality that we are facing right now is that if we do not interfere immediately, if Canada.... One of our recommendations is that Canada reopen our Canadian embassy in Baghdad. We have no embassy; we have no voice in Iraq. If Canada does not open the embassy in Iraq and unless more countries interfere, Iran will take Iraq.

Iran already has a strong influence in Iraq, and Jaysh al-Mahdi, which is loyal to Iran, is one of the major organizations persecuting the Christians today.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Chair, do I have some more time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

You do.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What evidence is there to suggest that evangelical Christians face a higher degree of persecution than other Christian groups?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

I will disagree with this. I believe that all groups of Christians face persecution; I wouldn't say one group more than another. I would disagree with that. All Christian groups are facing, I would say, equal persecution; I wouldn't say there are different levels.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Ms. Péclet, the floor is yours, please

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much for being with us here today.

My first question is about Iran. We know that Canada has decided, yesterday, to apply new sanctions against Iran. I would like to know if you believe there will be consequences for the situation of religious minorities in Iran. Do you believe this will affect the government’s position? Do you have any comments on this?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

There have been sanctions placed on Iran for as long as I can remember. I don't think that new sanctions will make a dramatic change.

Of course, I support the sanctions on Iran, because it keeps choking them, more or less, and it's better than a war. If you ask me, it's better than sending troops and starting a war.

Here is the problem with Iran....

I'm sorry.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

No, no; it's fine, if you have....