Evidence of meeting #32 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was eritrea.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Gentlemen, I wasn't expecting to be surprised here today. When Cliff Davis, the CEO from Nevsun, spoke to us by teleconference, I came away from that particular testimony believing he had no familiarity at all with UN responsibilities. He couldn't state clearly whether the company had never used forced labour. It might be perhaps we didn't ask the right questions. Irrespective of that, this is a significant move forward, and the company deserves to be commended publicly for that.
As the critic for international human rights for the official opposition, I have people from many different nations come before me, indigenous people who talk about the pressures that are put on them by their own government and the complicity they see, whether it's there or not, by Canadian companies. Saying that Nevsun is functioning within the context of its workplace in reasonable conformity is exceptionally good news to hear, but the obvious question is, what's next?
I think your second trip was probably well worthwhile, because there's a disparity here in the kinds of testimony we hear about life on the ground in this country. What we as Canadians would always want from our companies, the corporate social responsibility that we expect here, we expect in any country. There has been a resistance to that before.
Mr. Romaine, I'm pleased that you're working with this company as well. If in the end there's a message passed on to this government, because we're still hearing some pretty horrendous things about this....
The surprising part for me is the access to people that you talked about. Obviously the first time you were resistant to that. Have you come away from that actually feeling that was relatively wide open?
As an Individual
I do. I really was able on both occasions to say that these are the groups of people I wanted to speak with and that included government officials. Obviously in the mine site it's easy to have access through the company to their managers but also in terms of dealing with employees, I was able to pick whom to speak to. In some cases, for focus groups, I did that at random. I would take a roster and choose person A, person B, and so on.
The thorny issue that has come up before is with the subcontractors. I was able to have access to Segen Construction workers at their camp. I was able to freely visit the living quarters and so on and examine those. A relatively small workforce was at the site at the time I was there. They were working on finishing some sort of industrial processes for the copper phase. I went in and inspected their working conditions. There have been issues raised about personal protective equipment, etc. I was able to speak with them both formally and informally.
Using the information that I gathered from them, I went back to the headquarters in Asmara, interviewed the managers, the general managers of Segen, and then I did spot checks of those employees' files in Asmara to make sure the paperwork was in order in accordance with the screening procedure that has been put in place.
I felt in those meetings that I had a good constructive, open dialogue. Because the issue of national service workers was raised squarely with the construction company, however, there are other contractors that engage with the Bisha mine. Currently my estimation was that now that the construction phase for the copper phase...there's a limited role for Segen Construction until the future when they might undertake other construction activities.
The main thing is, with copper they have a big truck hauling of the concentrate to the port, so there's the company called Transhorn Transport which will be having.... Again, it's a state-owned enterprise. I met with those people and again, the same sort of screening process is being put into place, and so on and so forth.
Your question was about access. I felt I had reasonable access with people and it was not controlled.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
I have a simple question for Mr. Romaine.
Nevsun voluntarily discloses payments that it makes to this government. Of course, with some other Canadian companies—and we won't point fingers here—there have always been accusations of bribery in that. I'll give you the opportunity to respond. Is this full disclosure that there were no other payments made to this government that were not disclosed?
Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.
We provide full disclosure through our CSR reporting exercise, which is an annual exercise, on all the payments that we make to the Government of Eritrea.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
On this human rights assessment that you've done, I suppose it's going to take some time for the company to absorb your recommendations. Do you feel at this point that you have a good ear, that they're actually taking it into account and that they're...? Again, it is so hard sitting here with the tremendous accusations of other abuses. Hopefully, all of the Canadian companies will function as they should do, but in those areas you found that were lacking, do you believe the company is taking it to heart?
As an Individual
I do. Also, at the end of my last mission, I had a chance to speak with Government of Eritrea people and in very general broad strokes painted out some of the areas I intended to address and they seemed open. Obviously, Mr. Romaine can speak more to their intention around the follow-up, but I've been very encouraged. This trip to Ottawa is one part, but we've been in London together.
I know that these are contested issues, that there are different perspectives on it. I don't want to wave this report and say I have some magic bullet, but here is my best estimation of a good—
NDP
As an Individual
Just to complete my thought, the engagement with stakeholders around the recommendations gets to validate from different perspectives whether these are hitting the mark and can they be supplemented. I think the commitment that Nevsun has made to dialogue and also to publicly disclose a follow-up plan gives a measure of accountability on these issues.
Conservative
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being here.
Mr. Romaine, as the vice-president of corporate social responsibility, how often do you visit the Bisha site and what is the duration of your visits?
Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.
On average, I would say I go to Eritrea five times a year, 10 days at a time.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Do you have a direct reporter who's there on the ground, a manager of corporate social responsibility who reports directly to you?
Vice President, Corporate Social Responsibility, Nevsun Resources Ltd.
I deal with various different departmental managers, for example, the environment manager, the health and safety manager, the security manager, the general manager, and so on.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Lipsett, you mentioned in your remarks that these assessments are an emerging item. To protect your own reputation, what kind of contractual arrangements do you have when you enter into an agreement like the one with Nevsun that your human rights report is going to be totally objective? Obviously, there's an exchange of consideration here. Is there something in the contractual arrangement at the outset whereby you make them aware that what you see is what you're going to report?
As an Individual
Yes.
I have two remarks on that. It is a very valid question. In the absence of some sort of global mechanism that would fund this work so it could be completely independent and neutral, you come up against this. I get the same sorts of questions when I work with community groups or indigenous people. There's always the tendency to think if you're paid for by one side or the other, you will be—I used to be a litigation lawyer—kind of their pit bull.
Conservative
As an Individual
There are two things you can do to try to preserve your independence, and as you mentioned, your reputation.
One is by using internationally recognized methodologies. In the contractual arrangement and discussion we had it was very clear I would follow this methodology and I expected to be able to go to the country and have free access, etc. The second element is around the transparency of the report. That allows the public at large or interested stakeholders to make their own assessment of the assessment. In the absence of an independent body that will fund these, I think that's about the best you can do.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
That may emerge in the days ahead as these become more popular.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
You made a very powerful statement in respect to the large binder I have here with testimony that is substantially different. You've alluded to that, about what you expected to see on the ground. On page 27 you said:
The right to freedom of association and collective bargaining are protected by the Eritrean Labour Proclamation and these rights can and have been exercised—as is evidenced by the collective agreements in place for a number of BMSC’s suppliers, contractors and subcontractors.
Did you see evidence that unionized activity was happening there and respected? Were these collective agreements actually supported by legislation of the Eritrean government?
