Evidence of meeting #33 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was schools.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
With the combination of a new leadership on the one hand and American withdrawal on the other, how do people perceive the situation with respect to women's rights in that kind of configuration?
As an Individual
My understanding is that women's rights activists are generally pretty scared. They feel, as I said before, that the gains.... There have been gains made, and there is a fear that there will be a rollback once the west basically pulls out, because right now a lot of what's holding some of these positions in place is western pressure. There's a real fear that there will be a rollback when the west pulls out.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Given that understandable fear of a rollback, is there a particular role that Canada could now play, given the prospect of a rollback?
As an Individual
A rollback isn't a flat wall down and saying, “We're never going to talk to you again.” As I said earlier, I think the role is about constant pressure and setting constant expectations. It's about saying what the consequences are in terms of whatever aid is going forward or whatever trade deals we do, or saying, “Whatever you want from us, this is what we want from you.” A lot of the time, these conversations tend to be very one-way in terms of “This is what we're going to give you”, but I think as it relates to women, there needs to be a lot more of saying, “These are the strings that come with it”. I don't think it's wrong to say that these are strings, and they apply specifically to how women are treated and how they're part of the decision-making process.
I had a fairly short time, so I focused on education because that's the foundation for everything, but as you get into the higher levels, you move more toward the decision-making process. That's where there can be an impact. You can say, if you're going to meet with someone and three other decision-makers that you want one of them to be a woman. Those are the kinds of things that move it forward. They may do it grudgingly at first, but then you get the woman in the room and it goes from there.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Canada has had experience elsewhere and also in Afghanistan in terms of training those who I would call, in the justice sector, the judiciary, the police, and the like. Would there be a particular role for us here in what I would call, generically speaking, the justice sector, both in involving women in that justice sector, whether it be in the judiciary and the like, and in that kind of implementation of both the legal framework and the situation on the ground?
As an Individual
I think that would be a fantastic thing.
As I said, I didn't do this in Afghanistan, necessarily, but one of the things I did do was to work on a women's program in Iraq. One thing I did was that I actually brought police chiefs to groups of women to explain what they would do when the victims of domestic violence came to their station. That gave the women a better understanding.
I didn't have this done just in their community. I had them come to the cities, where women thought things were a little bit better, so that the women could understand exactly what happened and start to think about how they could craft better enforcement of this legislation.
Yes, I think that is an absolutely important thing.
Conservative
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Thank you, Ms. Haag, for your presentation. I've been scribbling notes and trying to figure out where I was going to start.
I'm a big fan of context. I think one of the issues I have—and you have spoken to this or touched on this—is that we, the west, are reshaping the context in which many of these communities are being expected to live. I think we're reshaping that context without the support in terms of....
You gave a wonderful example actually in the domestic violence issue where the woman was walking by and she went into the home and she spoke with the husband. In that moment she gave him a context in which he can see why at this moment it was not a good idea to be beating his wife.
I'm wondering how the west can help provide some of that context. You're speaking of the implementation aspect, but to many of these people, this is a cultural thing: “This is something that has been because it has been, so why should it change now? I'm going to go to jail for doing something that has been done for as long as I can remember, and why is that?”
That's the first part of my question. I guess it ties into the second part on the schools, about the women who went to the elders who then went to the Taliban to arrange for these schools to open.
Again, under what context were these schools allowed to open? On the curriculum in particular, what are they allowed to teach? Are there any restrictions on what they can teach these young women?
As an Individual
I'll start with the second part first.
In terms of the context and what they are teaching, I don't know. To be very clear, I think one of the mistakes that sometimes happens in aid is we get too into those details. What I wanted was them to find something they wanted to happen and make it happen.
The quality of the education and what they are being taught probably isn't great. It might not be the best school, but what they are doing is they are setting a new standard where every day for six months of the year, girls get up and go to school. Right now they stop for the winter season, and they stop for the summer season, so it's really probably four, five, or six months. But they are starting a new tradition of girls going to school.
What they learn, and the structure they learn in, those are things we can continue to build on down the road. I don't actually think what they are learning is as important right now as the fact they are starting to learn things. The books are donated. The teachers are scraped from the community. My understanding is they are learning some basic math skills, reading and writing, and that's all.
The larger thing I don't know, but I also don't think we should know too much at this stage. That's a second, third, or fourth step down the line.
Your other question was in terms of the context for the domestic violence. Is that correct?
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Yes. The context in terms of I guess we're saying, “We will do this if you stop doing this”—all of which is good—“If you include women, if you stop domestic violence, we will give you this.”
You said earlier that there are very pragmatic reasons which at least stop it immediately, but in terms of the fear of the rollback and slipping back into old habits. there needs to be something that educates or puts a different spin or a different context in their minds in order to sustain those changes. I wonder if you agree.
As an Individual
Kind of, I do, but I also think context changes over time with enforcement. In many western countries, in Canada, in the U.S., we've had some horrible beliefs and some horrible things that changed through legislation. People might grouse about it, but they don't want to suffer the consequences of breaking it. Long term down the line you get future generations who say, “Our country did that? My parents did that?”
I think the context is sometimes you have to implement. Sometimes you have to enforce, and give it time, because I think younger generations also are much more open to some of these changes.
The other thing is when you talk about cultural context, you're talking about the male culture may be to abuse his wife, but I have yet to meet a woman who thinks that's okay. It's also about respect.
My point is it's also about respecting the culture of the entire country, because there are many people who don't think it's okay. The people who do think it's okay sometimes get a little bit of a higher platform, and it's an important thing, I think, to remember that in some ways it's not about radically changing the culture or the context; it's about respecting a large group of people who haven't had a chance to have a voice in naming the context.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you.
We do have another item of business on an unrelated subject that we have to deal with, and I just want to make sure that we can fit it in. Are we at a stage where we can deal with that?
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I just wanted to ask one question.
Conservative
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I want to ask about this horrendous case regarding Sahar Gul, the 13-year-old who was imprisoned. They pulled out her fingernails. It was a horrific case. Her in-laws were tried, convicted, sentenced to 10 years, and then released after one year.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Has the government taken any action on this case yet?
As an Individual
Not to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean they haven't. My last information was that they were released after a year and that people were complaining but nothing was happening. Again, it doesn't mean that nothing has happened. To my knowledge, nothing more has happened. That's my most recent information.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
All right.
You mentioned the Taliban a number of times. That's of course extremely troubling for us.
You were talking about outlying villages and provinces, etc. Is that where you're talking about the elders going to see them, or is this happening right in Kabul?
As an Individual
In outlying areas. I think Kabul is very strongly in the control of the government.
In other areas of Afghanistan, it changes. There are some areas of Afghanistan that are still completely controlled by the Taliban, where they are the people in charge. It is something that is a reality. It is a bad reality, but it is a reality, so it has to be at least acknowledged. These schools wouldn't have opened without their permission, because they're in charge there. We have to understand that for the people in these communities, that's the reality they live with every day.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I just want a little more information on that, Ms. Haag. You know that by testimony of the people in these villages, or have you witnessed these kinds of interactions yourself?