Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Sept. 30th, 2014

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

There certainly is sense to that because the humanitarian aid would need to be protected. The moment people go for the aid, they're at risk of being attacked.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Absolutely, yes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Again, if we have limited resources to put into our aid, where would you suggest the need is most important at this juncture? Is there a place we would phase in where we would try to target our aid?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Of course the people are the most important. As well as giving humanitarian aid, we have to make sure the people are secure.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

But I'm asking, where specifically in the country? Is there a group more in need than another, for instance?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

All the groups are equally in need.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We'll go then to Professor Cotler next, and then we'll go back.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I too want to commend Reverend El Shafie for being with us and once again providing timely and compelling testimony to us today and really exposing ISIS as a case study of our responsibility to prevent and protect against mass atrocities and the targeting of religious minorities, Christians as a case study, and the genocidal actions against them.

I have two questions.

First, ISIS as you know is not just in Iraq it is also in Syria. There are those of us who said there was a need to protect minorities and provide humanitarian aid three and a half years ago when the civilian protests began in Syria, which then was confronted by the assault from the Assad regime: disappearances, torture, bombs, all the thing that we know about.

We were told at the end of the first year, when there were “only” 8,000 dead and now there are more than 200,000, that if we were to intervene then, and it didn't even have to be military—all forms of intervention—this would lead to civil war, sectarian strife, jihadists, etc. Everything we were told would happen if we intervened in my view happened because of our inaction, because we didn't intervene.

What options do we have in Syria? Because regrettably not acting when we did, are there any reasonable options?

Second, ISIS is a cruel and barbaric face of radical Islam—and I distinguish that from Islam, I want to make that clear—but it's not the only threat. We also have other radical Islamic groups, which you know only too well, whether it be al-Qaeda, al-Nusra, whether it be Hamas and Hezbollah. While one is Sunni and the other Shiite both are supported by Iran, which has boasted of arming both this summer. So the question is, one, are there any good options regarding Syria? Two, what about the other critical mass of threat?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Thank you, Mr. Cotler, for your question. As usual your question is very simple but yet very complicated.

Let's backtrack a little about ISIS and who they are. You need to understand that ISIS is a branch of al-Qaeda. The leader of ISIS is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. The leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, wanted ISIS to focus on their territory in Iraq. They wanted Jabhat al-Nusra, which is another branch of al-Qaeda, to focus on Syria. That's when Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi disagreed with Ayman al-Zawahiri and separated. Now ISIS has become separate from al-Qaeda. ISIS is the child of al-Qaeda but they disagreed on which territory belonged to you and which territory belonged to me.

ISIS was born, and we can see the monster right now.

With regard to the situation in Syria the world did too little too late. Now the problem is literally way bigger than us. We have two devils to deal with and we have to choose between them: the Assad regime or the two extremist groups.

The only way we can have a sense of fixing, that we can cooperate with local groups, is that we have the sense from them that maybe they are moderate enough or they have a sense of democracy or they will be able to ensure protection of minorities. However, history teaches us, especially American history, that this is really a tricky game because America supported Osama bin Laden during the mujahedeen war in Afghanistan and turned against him. It supported Saddam Hussein during the Iranian war, the first Arab Gulf war, and turned against him. It supported the rebels in Libya who killed their American ambassador three months later.

The truth and the reality are we have to choose the only solution, that we work with local groups that we trust. I will not name them because I simply don't trust any of them. We have to work with local groups to be able to get out of the problem in Syria.

That's my simple answer. I hope this answer helps you.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes. If you have a moment, could you comment on what I said about the critical mass of threat from radical, violent Islam, apart from the ISIS or al-Qaeda threat, the overall threat?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

On the overall threat, which is the extremists, we have to understand the story from the beginning, when the so-called Arab Spring started. Now we are discovering that the Arab Spring turned out to be a cold, deadly winter.

We're all against the dictatorships—please don't misunderstand me. We're all against Mubarak, Gadhafi, Ali Abdullah Saleh, Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali of Tunisia. We're all against all of these dictatorships.

The problem is that when you take a dictatorship out you create a political vacuum. Who is using this political vacuum? The extremists. That's what we saw happen in Libya. That's what we saw happen in Egypt when the Muslim Brotherhood took over.

The extremists will only be defeated if we have the separation between religion and state. That's the only way to establish democracy in the Middle East, to have the separation between religion and state, and to have freedom of religion for minorities and to protect minorities.

Right now, because the political vacuum was created, the extremists will increase and their influence will increase for one simple reason: there is no education. If we are talking about Egyptian society, 30% to 40% of Egyptians are illiterate. They don't know how to write or read their own name. Even if you reform the constitution, the Egyptians don't know what they're voting about, so they will follow the man who comes with an appeal and says, follow me so you can go to heaven. That's exactly what's happened. Education, education, education to defeat the extremists in our Middle Eastern land.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you. We're out of time for that round.

We go now to Ms. Grewal, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. El Shafie, for your time today. I deeply appreciate your passion and your commitment to fighting for the rights of religious minorities.

Past Prime Minister of Iraq, Nouri al-Maliki, is blamed for creating favourable conditions for the formation of the Islamic State by ostracizing the Sunni Muslim community there through sectarian policies that favoured the Shia minority.

In what way do you see that economic hardship and political apathy for Sunni Muslims in Iraq are linked to the formation of the Islamic state, and how does that get addressed? What changes need to be made politically? Do you think that more favourable treatment of Sunnis would get rid of the support that the Islamic State seems to have?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

If we are just talking about the situation in Iraq, I believe that mainly because the Maliki government, which is majority Shia, mistreated the Sunnis—and the other minorities, not just the Sunnis—we see that the Sunnis, as I mentioned before, had to cooperate with ISIS in order to get rid of this injustice they faced for the last 10 years.

I believe that if the Shia government started to deal with a reconciliation process, where they can include not just the Sunnis but other minorities such as the Christians, Yazidis, Mandaeans, whoever they are.... One of the requests of the Christian community, some of the Christian community in Iraq, for example, in the Kurdish area, is that they be self-governing to protect themselves.

This will maybe answer part of the question Mr. David Sweet asked me about whether the Kurdish troops protected the Christians there or not. You need to remember that in the beginning when ISIS entered Kurdistan, many of the Kurdish troops left the minorities behind and they left. They withdrew without even warning the minorities. The Yazidis were left behind. The Christians were left behind. That's how ISIS was able to do a lot of damage to them, because the Peshmerga did not protect them in the beginning.

We have to bring the situation in Iraq to reconciliation, not just with the Sunnis but with all the minorities, together with the majority. After we settle and after we have this peace and reconciliation, which is very similar to what's happened in Lebanon—the Taif Agreement, in 1988, I believe—after the reconciliation takes place, in the areas where there are minorities, if they can have international troops to ensure their safety, like peacekeeping troops, that's the only way they will return home because then they will feel secure and they will reject ISIS.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I understand the new Prime Minister, Haider al-Abadi, is from the same political party as al-Maliki.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

That's correct.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

So how are the two different from one another? Is al-Abadi a positive change for Iraq's religious minorities there?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

So far I don't see any difference yet, to be honest with you; al-Abadi is talking the talk. Just when he will walk the walk is a different story.

The difference here is that they learn the lesson. They saw ISIS take over 40% of their country. They saw Mosul collapsing. The lesson now has been learned, and let's hope it has been learned forever, not just for a period of time and after that the Shia government will repeat its mistake.

There is one thing I know. In many cases in history, human beings repeat their mistakes. What's the definition of insanity? It's repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome.

Over and over we saw the Iraqi government acting in an insane way, and I hope this is not the case.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Chair, do I have some more time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have one more minute.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The Islamic State has caused mass general displacement for people in Iraq. Can you elaborate on various religious minority groups that have moved: Christians, Yazidis, and other minorities that fled to different parts of Iraq and are now safer from persecution?

Are they still living in a territory that is controlled by the Islamic State? What is being done to protect food and provide relief for these people? What can Canada do to help in this area?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

The ones who were able to escape to Kurdistan obviously are under the protection of the Kurdish government. We can help them on the ground, as I said, with shelters and medication, and secure their return home.

The ones who still remain in ISIS territory will be given three options: convert to Islam, be killed, or pay extra taxes. If they don't they will collect their women, and sell them for $20 apiece. They will kill their children, and they will crucify them. That's what's happening to them right now.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.