Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Sept. 30th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Let's go now to Mr. Benskin.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you. This is my first time meeting you and hearing from you. Your knowledge and the information you bring to the table is invaluable.

I want to pursue a bit of the line of questioning of my earlier colleagues. I am by no means a military strategist, but as a former martial artist, we look at two options: you have an offensive posture and a defensive posture.

For me in this situation the offensive posture would be, as you were saying, attacking the financial support of those governments or penalizing those governments that are supporting ISIS, attacking the oil fields and cutting off the lifeline.

The defensive posture I look at as being along the lines of what my colleague Mr. Marston was talking about in terms of humanitarian aid. I agree with you wholeheartedly there is a double element to that humanitarian aid. There is the need to provide the assistance, be it medicine or shelter. There also is the need to defend that, to make sure those supplies get to the refugee centres, to make sure the refugee centres are protected against any kind of invasion, any kind of situation where people are held hostage by nefarious means.

Would you elaborate on how Canada could possibly play that defensive position in terms of making sure refugees are protected, that the food, the medical aid they need, does get to them so things do not disintegrate in those centres?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

First of all, you have a Canadian embassy and you have ambassadors. By the way, we met with the Canadian ambassador there, and he is doing a great job. He is going everywhere. Usually the Canadian ambassador is sitting in their office doing nothing. Sorry, did I say that out loud? I'm sorry. This is on the record.

In this case, the Canadian ambassador in Iraq is doing a great job. He is going everywhere, ensuring that there is communication, and he sees the situation on the ground. He went to Dohuk, which is on the border with Mosul. He is a very brave man, and I'm very proud of him as a Canadian ambassador to our country there.

Your embassies have to be your eyes in this area to ensure that the aid reaches the right people. When you are giving Kurdistan the aid, giving governments the aid, I can assure you it doesn't matter what government it is. Whether it is the central government of Iraq or the Kurdish government, I can assure you that there is corruption on the ground. I can assure you. There is no way around it.

With respect to the part that goes to the government, the Canadian embassy and our Canadian staffers have to know which project, and they have to visit this project. They have to see what's happening, to go there unannounced. You don't have to go to the minister to tell him you're going to see the project today; just grab your car and go there to see what's happening.

Accountability is number one, and it has to come from our embassy and staffers.

Number two, there are many organizations that can be Canadian organizations, but they have ground there. One of them is Mr. Medlum Merogi, and he has an organization on the ground. Mr. Merogi was my hands and feet on the ground there. He is under Canadian law, so we can hold him accountable. That's just an example; I'm not pointing at anybody. I'm saying as an example that we can have a Canadian organization that goes to do the work there and is accountable to us. It can be local, such as with his Iraqi background, and we can cooperate with it to ensure that the aid reaches the people. When you just give it to the government and you leave it, that's a waste of money.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

It's more of a comment than anything, but you were talking about the separation of church and state. I think we can break that down into its simplest form as something that every country, including Canada, has experienced for better or for worse throughout its history, and that's inclusion.

We see this a lot in African nations, where there are so many different so-called ethnic minorities in a given space that they don't always feel included. It has led to some atrocious acts in various countries. It's the same kind of thing that's happening here, and I'm not talking about ISIS as far as justification. I'm talking about what you were talking about in terms of what needs to happen in Iraq to begin to turn that around, which is inclusion, so that everybody feels they are a part of the decision-making process and they have a say in what happens to them.

Would you think that is a reasonable assumption or characterization?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

I agree with you.

When we start the reconciliation process in Iraq, the main problem is that there are two ways they will go. The first way is that they will have a meeting like this, where they will serve tea and coffee and take some pictures and put it in the media, and the minute you leave it will be over. This will have been a nice meeting where they take pictures, but nothing will really take place. They will choose from the Sunni leaders or the Christian leaders or the Yazidi leaders, who are also corrupted. Basically, they will bribe them to keep them quiet and that would be the end.

That is one way. That's the fear, that this will take place.

The other way is that you sit down with other countries and other governments under an international umbrella. It could be under the UN umbrella. For example, let's say that's what needs to take place; here is the election of reconciliation, and these are the steps you have to take on the ground. If you are serious about healing the wound of the country of Iraq and the nation of Iraq, it doesn't matter who they are. You see, I believe that religion is between you and God, but your nationality as an Iraqi is between you and your nation. Iraq belongs to all Iraqis, not Christians, not Yazidis, not Shiites, not Sunnis. Iraq belongs to all Iraqis.

If you are serious about that, you have to have an international umbrella, international monitoring, to ensure the process of reconciliation is taking place with a serious recommendation. If Iraq's Shia majority government is serious about this, they will work with the international community and their locals to ensure that this will happen.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Schellenberger, you will be our last questioner.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you.

Reverend, it's been great to hear your insight today, and I'm very pleased for that.

As you stated, minorities are given three choices, but the end result is Muslim or death. Do we call this war in Iraq and Syria a religious war, or what term should we use for this conflict? I have asked other witnesses and have been told that this is not a religious war, but I am confused when a person is beheaded in the name of Allah.

Is this a religious war, or how should we—

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Yes, it is a religious war.

The people who tell you it's not a religious war say that because they are politically correct.

One of the main cancers in our Canadian society is political correctness.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

How should one engage a religious extremist to incentivize them to tolerate religious minorities and their freedoms? Is this achievable in Iraq today?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

By the Iraqi government, by ISIS, by who?

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

By the world.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

By the world, to achieve religious tolerance in Iraq.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Yes, tolerance.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

You can see this religious tolerance happening in Kurdistan, and maybe we can support this. Now, I am not saying that the Kurdish government is an angel and is doing everything right. Please don't misunderstand me. At Christmas a few years ago, Christians in Kurdistan were attacked for four hours. The Kurdish police did not stop to help them at all. I just need to be clear, because I am not here to paint it as a perfect country; it is not a perfect country.

But I believe that religious tolerance is achievable in two ways in Iraq, or anywhere else in the world. Number one is by education. I'm not talking just about education of this generation, I'm talking about education for the next generation. You can see this example in Kurdistan to a great degree.

Number two is that we have to connect our aid and our international trade to the improvement of human rights in these countries. We have to do that. I'm not saying to use it as a weapon. I'm saying to use it as giving a hand. I'm not saying to cut the aid completely and fully. All I'm saying is, “I will increase my aid to you, I will increase my international trade with you, if the human rights conditions are improved in your country. If you have women's rights, I will give you more aid, and I will do more business with you. If the rights of minorities are protected, if the rights of children are protected, if you are really fighting human trafficking, and if you are really protecting your environment....” It's all of this.

If we can connect our aid and international trade to the improvement of human rights and other matters in these countries, you will see a huge difference, because every government needs aid, and they need international trade. Hurt them in their pockets, and they will listen.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to stop with that to give you your final remarks.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Thank you, and I thank you once again for the opportunity.

I want to acknowledge Mr. Brad Butt, who came with me to Iraq; I'm very thankful to him. I want to acknowledge Mr. David Sweet, who has always been a great supporter of our cause. I want to acknowledge Mr. Wayne Marston, who I consider very close and a dear friend to my heart. Mr. Irwin Cotler is not here, but I leave the best for the last, Ms. Elizabeth May, I thank you so much for coming here. I really appreciate it.

These are my closing remarks. Regardless of our political differences: Conservative, Liberal, NDP, or Green—and I watched the debate in the Canadian Parliament every day—I can assure you these people don't care if you're a Conservative, a Liberal, NDP, or Green. It's as simple as that, so we have to move fast to help the people on the ground.

I used to be one of them. I used to be in prison and I still carry the scars on my body for my Christian beliefs. I am honoured to carry them as medals of honour. If there is one thing I know about Canada, as a person who came to this country as a refugee, I know that Canada is a temple of human rights. I know that Canada is the conscience of our world, and I know that our world is a dark and unfair place. It's not because of people who have done evil, but because of the people who remain silent about it. In the absence of light, darkness prevails. If there is one thing I learned when I was in prison in Egypt, you can always kill the dreamers but no one can kill the dream.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for having me.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Reverend El Shafie.

That concludes our business for today, unless honourable members have anything administrative to bring up.

We are done, and we are adjourned. Thank you very much.