Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2014

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Lee brought a young lady to my office. She was a refugee who came to Canada, and she was later deported by Canada back to South Korea. What would happen at that point in time? Do you think South Korea would keep her? I've been concerned about her ever since.

[Randall Baran-Chong]

We don't know of any instances in which South Korea has actively deported North Koreans back to North Korea.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Under this program you're proposing, if the doors were opened and the situation were similar to that with the Vietnamese boat people in Canada in the 1970s, how many people do you think your organization would have the capacity to deal with?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

Our proposal caps the number at 100 over five years. To put that into perspective, as part of its MOU, the Project Tibet Society has 1,000 over five years. We're looking at a tenth of the volume and we're looking at the support of the immediate Korean Canadian community, which is forty times the size of the local Tibetan community.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

In your remarks, you talked about 2,500 a year going to South Korea. Yours is a very, very modest number compared to that. I was expecting a much larger number, to be frank. Maybe—I don't know—there's a way of broadening this. That's just starting to scratch the surface really.

[Randall Baran-Chong]

I think that's what we want to do actually. If you think about it, it would launch Canada into a leadership position in resettling North Korean refugees. We developed that number through consultations with the community. We looked at what, for example, was manageable for the church community, which is a vibrant and highly supportive part of the Korean Canadian community. It gives us time to develop the programming and resettlement supports that are necessary. Speaking with community organizations as well, which would be integral to seeing this program through, we agreed that this was an appropriate number.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I've had a bit of experience with the Korean church community in Hamilton. I went to one of their services and they in fact thanked us for the work of this committee. When you go to many churches today, the number of parishioners is declining, but this church was completely full, so I am very optimistic.

How is my time, Mr. Chair? I have a minute and a half.

Obviously one of the things I would expect from your program would be a success rate. Do you do any kind of screening at all with regard to education or background to ensure that the person has the best chance in Canada?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

Unfortunately, because of the schedule, we didn't have time to translate this memo we have about the entire program. It includes criteria that we discuss. We'll try to distribute this after the meeting at least to get it translated and distributed to the committee. You are correct that we design factors and criteria that are going to ensure the best chances of success for these North Korean refugees. We're looking at people between the ages of 18 and 45 and at their past employment and record of education. There are certain factors we might consider neutral or perhaps negative, including some of their activities in North Korea or any other assessed risks. Certainly we would want to choose criteria that are going to ensure not only their success but also community support and a network that can ensure that they succeed.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

We're not too aware of the goings-on within North Korea and the level of education they have available to them.

[Randall Baran-Chong]

It's true that much of the primary education is highly centred around political ideology. There are still many skilled North Koreans who go on to become doctors. There are some in the assembly. Many of them go on to have successful careers. If you look at someone like Sungju and how hard-working he is, there are very few North Koreans who can speak English this fluently and this confidently, and he's done it in very few years. I would never underestimate the determination and the success that North Koreans can achieve with the right chance.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I would think so. I was posing questions like a devil's advocate actually.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I suppose by definition anybody who has gone through that particular process of getting oneself out of North Korea through China, Vietnam, Thailand, and Laos to get here is by definition a person who has persistence.

We turn now to Ms. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you both for your willingness to be in front of our committee today. I admire your passion for the well-being of refugees.

Mr. Baran-Chong, I understand that roughly 1,500 North Korean refugees flee to South Korea every year. Do you know what kind of services these refugees have access to in order to integrate into the south? Is there a role that Canada could play in helping them resettle over there by helping them with funding for education, job training, or something else?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

There is a variety of supports that the Ministry of Unification as well as Hanawon provide. Some of this support is financial, everything from stipends to help them on a monthly basis to one-time payments that allow them to get housing depending on the size of their family. Other more social supports in integration include things like Hana Centers, which are kind of drop-in centres for them to check into and to ensure they're doing well. There are grants for public education so they can attend public university for free. There's a whole swath of support provided by the South Korean government.

In terms of the role that Canada can play in that, Canada has played a role in that. For example, we have worked with members of the government in the embassy in Seoul to develop a program through which we leverage Canadian teachers who are teaching English in Seoul to build an English-language training program for North Korean students out of the embassy. We also work with many partners in South Korea as well as with the Ministry of Unification and with Hanawon. We have met with them several times when they have visited here. So Canada is playing an active role in resettlement, and we're helping shape it from experiences that we have in refugee resettlement and in everything from mental health programs to social supports and things like that.

Sungju, I don't know if you want to add anything about the kind of support you have received.

[Sungju Lee]

Fortunately, I had the experience when I was in South Korea in 2011 that the Canadian embassy opened an English school, and I was a student of the Canadian embassy. I could improve my English there.

Thank you.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How much humanitarian and relief work has taken place in North Korea in the last decade? What are the limitations on international organizations like the UN or different NGOs that want to come into the country? Does South Korea have the potential ability to provide North Korea aid and relief?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

There are several different ways in which the world is influencing and touching North Korea on the ground.

From a governmental perspective, the South Korean government is trying to engage through things like trade. There was the Kaesong industrial complex, whereby South Korean companies set up businesses that would employ North Korean labour, thereby hopefully trickling down some of these wages to North Koreans. But one of the challenges with the governmental issue is that it's also very political, so Kaesong closed down. Many of these South Korean businessmen essentially were held hostage by the government because of political tensions between the two countries.

In Canada it's also challenging, because we have the toughest sanctions in the world on North Korea, tougher than South Korea, the United States, or anyone, but Canada has also allowed exceptions for things like humanitarian aid.

There's also a lot of private involvement on the ground in North Korea, with everything from churches that are helping set up universities like the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology to other organizations that provide things like soybeans and soy milk to children in North Korea.

North Korea's changing from within, I believe, through these exposures to the outside world.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Your organization's mission is to empower and amplify the most effective voices of North Korean human rights in the refugee movement, or in other words, the refugees themselves. How can the Government of Canada seek to empower and serve these North Korean refugees in this way?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

Since around 2010, Canada officially has had a controlled engagement policy. In a way, those sanctions don't necessarily have a huge punch, because the real economic impact was small. Only a few hundred thousand dollars' worth of trade was going into North Korea from Canada. What we can do, though, is enable things, such as allowing humanitarian aid or organizations like ours to get more access into North Korea, thus allowing more exceptions for things like education, or for people who want to do things like bringing information into North Korea that helps change minds and expose North Koreans to information they might not normally have access to.

There are also opportunities through educational exchanges. At UBC there's a professor who brings six North Korean professors here every year so they can learn about pedagogy here in Canada. They go back and share that with their students.

So Canada is in a way making that impact, but in terms of the refugee issue, though, this is our primary focus right now, because there is a need to help these North Koreans. We need this consent essentially to allow North Koreans to have this option to come to Canada and to allow Canadians to help enable that.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

No. I'm afraid we're over by 30 seconds.

Professor Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Chairman, my question has been prompted by something you said and that was suggested by Barry. It just follows that up.

Why would be assisting North Koreans in Thailand, let's say—and you made reference to the UNHCR—versus assisting them in China, Laos, or Vietnam?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

The quick answer is that they will be repatriated to North Korea. To leave North Korea without permission.... They don't have the same mobility rights that we do. They will be punished by imprisonment, torture, or execution. Depending on what circumstances they escaped through, whether that be a pastor, or a South Korean, or an American—and oftentimes these brokers could be two of those three things—they are more severely punished.

China, Laos, and Vietnam all will repatriate them. Thailand is the country that will deport them to one of the two countries: the United States or South Korea.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

How do we vet the North Korean refugees who would be sponsored?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

We would work under a model similar to that of the South Koreans. We've had informal discussions with the South Korean government. We would interview these North Koreans who are in Thailand, and gather their biographical information that would be necessary for referral to the government and to pair them with the sponsors. We'd need to take the precaution and involve the South Korean government and the national intelligence service to essentially assess those risks because, as I mentioned earlier, there are about 26,000 North Korean refugees who have resettled in South Korea. So there are about 26,000 different data points that we can assess these peoples' stories.

We've also considered involving a North Korean defector to kind of vet their story and smell test it and ensure that these North Koreans are legitimate.