Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2014

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I only have a brief amount of time, but it's a longer question. You made reference to Canada having some stronger sanctions regarding North Korea. What are some of the specific things we might do now to promote, or to sanction in regard to, the issue of human rights in North Korea?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

One of the most interesting ways that things are changing within North Korea is in their access to information. One of the key ways that they have gotten access to information is through the markets in North Korea. Seeing DVDs from South Korea and the United States has really changed their perception, not only of the rest of the world but has also made them challenge their own reality.

There are organizations that smuggle these DVDs in or USB keys into North Korea. This allows them to get access to this information in private. Much of this content provides corrective history, telling them the truth of the famine, telling them the truth of the regime.

Sungju, I'm sure you have stories or know of friends who were influenced by the outside media they were exposed to.

[Sungju Lee]

Sure. I have many refugee friends in South Korea. They recently got out of North Korea. They have stories. They share their stories. When they were in North Korea they'd watch South Korean soap operas. The women were interested in fashion. They would look at a picture on the screen and then bring the DVD to a clothing maker and say that they wanted to have these kinds of clothes, to please make them these clothes. They create exactly the same clothes and then they sell them in the markets. That is what's going on.

Also, there are some USB keys and DVDs in the city. Many people think that in North Korea there are only poor people and rich people outside Pyongyang, but I think that was about 20 years ago. Now there is a middle class who are merchants. They are selling these DVDs and trying to make money in the markets. They deliver these DVDs and they deliver information to other cities. This is going on right now in North Korea.

Many North Korean people know about things outside their country.

[Randall Baran-Chong]

The vast majority of North Korean defectors indicate that they were exposed in North Korea to some form of outside media, whether it be radio broadcasts, DVDs, or USB keys, etc. It plays a crucial role in their decision whether to stay or not.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

With regard to regulations, what can the international community do?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

In terms of?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Again, addressing and alleviating the human rights situation in North Korea.

[Randall Baran-Chong]

I'm going to put it back into the Canadian context. Canada has a unique position here because the six-party talks nations are in a different position than Canada is. The six-party talks nations often have to put human rights as a footnote or take it off the agenda, because the primary concern is around nuclear security and denuclearization, whereas countries like Canada can remain vocal on these issues. We have seen this government being vocal on these issues.

The international communities that are not part of the six-party talks can continue to enable organizations to get exposure inside North Korea. Other countries can also help play a role in resettling North Korean refugees, just from the perspective of building capacity for North Koreans who may want to defect and if the South Korean capacity can no longer handle them, because it does take time to build this infrastructure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Let's move on to Mr. Schellenberger.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, and thanks very much for being here today.

Do Laos and Vietnam treat North Koreans the same as China does?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

In terms of repatriating them?

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

In terms of repatriation, yes.

[Randall Baran-Chong]

Yes, they do.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

So the safest place to get to is Thailand. So you're in constant pursuit all the way from North Korea then to Thailand?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

Absolutely.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you.

How do we vet the North Korean refugees who are being sponsored?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

Is this is similar to Mr. Cotler's question, or...?

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I guess it is. He's more eloquent than I am.

In your opinion what are the most pressing human rights issues in Korea causing this exodus of so many people?

Sungju.

[Sungju Lee]

For me the most suppressing human rights issue in North Korea is [Inaudible—Editor], which is third- generation punishment. If I make a mistake, which is high treason, my father and my grandfather and his father have to go to jail, even though they didn't make any mistake. It was because of me. If I have a son, if I have a daughter, or if I have a grandson, they also have to go to jail or they will be executed by the government because of the mistake I made. That for me, that is the most suppressing human rights problem in North Korea. That's kind of rule of North Korea.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I know this might sound like a little different question, but it was stated earlier that the sponsors in Canada would be South Koreans who have come to Canada. They may sponsor North Korean refugees coming here. There's no animosity then between our South Korean Canadians and North Koreans?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

I wouldn't say it would be exclusively Korean Canadians, but that's been our focus so far. It's just as it was with the Vietnamese boat people, when people from across Canada and rural towns in Ontario sponsored Vietnamese families. So our focus has been on the Korean community because we know it is the most immediate one and we know it's the one that has the heart and the wallet for it at this point.

The issue of animosity is an interesting question because ironically we have found from our experience and in conversations with people that Koreans here and Koreans in South Korea, as well as North Koreans in South Korea and North Koreans who have been here, face far less discrimination here in Canada. The Korean Canadians have far less animosity and even more of a heart and more generosity towards North Koreans, especially among South Korean youths.

There's a lot of indifference towards North Korea. In fact, many younger South Koreans, just from people we speak to, find North Korea like a dull pain because it's just constantly interrupting their lives when there are these crises that close the stock market or cause them to live in fear or things like that. The Korean Canadians have been staunch supporters of North Korean human rights and refugees, and are highly enthusiastic about this program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Devolin, you were going to say something.

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes, if I may, I would like to link two issues, one that Mr. Schellenberger raised and one that Ms. Grewal raised. It was referenced that in the past Canada has offered English lessons through the Canadian embassy. Actually, Senator Yonah Martin and I were a part of that effort in encouraging Canadian English teachers in Korea to volunteer some time.

We thought it was a great idea. It didn't work very well. One reason, we figured out subsequently, was that if you're a North Korean defector living in South Korea, the people you are the least comfortable around are actually other North Koreans because you fear that they are returning information to North Korea about your family. It's not necessarily a case of someone being a spy who comes to South Korea and it's high profile and people get sent back. They're more like moles who are gathering information, or maybe they themselves are being blackmailed for information.

If you go to a group English lesson, you tell your story and then unbeknownst to you that information is being sent back to North Korea. The link is that if you are a North Korean and you defect, which is a crime against the state, your generation, your parents' generation, and your children's generation have all committed a crime as well in the eyes of the law, and so they can be imprisoned.

To me, this is what makes a North Korean refugee so fundamentally different from refugees who come from other countries. Even after they get out, they still live in fear—not that someone is going to push them in front of a bus but that someone is listening to them, taking their information, trying to figure out which of their relatives back in North Korea are going to be punished for their crime.

If they can come to a place like Canada, that is far less likely to happen, although it's still possible. Any anxiety that they continue to live with, even when they're notionally free, never really goes away for some of those people. This is not the case for all North Koreans. For many of them, going to South Korea is the right option, but for a small minority, as HanVoice is talking about, it's not really an acceptable option. That's why we're talking about such a relatively small number of people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We used a bunch of your time for something that really wasn't the question you asked, so please do so.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Okay, and I appreciate that.

When North Koreans leave North Korea and would like to come to Canada, do they want to set up a Korean community or would they like to become Canadians?