Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 6th, 2014

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you for being here today to follow up with the committee about issues in Honduras.

First, I would like one or both of you to elaborate on the changes in Honduras since the 2013 election. Has there been an increase or decrease in crime, general violence, and attacks on journalists? Whatever your answer is, please describe why you think that's the case and include any statistics you might have.

Have the police and justice systems been reformed at all since Hernández was elected president?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

Thank you very much for your question.

Mr. Chair, we do not have very specific statistics that would cover the specific period since the new administration took office in January of this year until now, so I would not be in a position to provide you with hard and reliable statistics on that. The only thing I can report for a fact though, is some of the measures that have been taken by the government, some of which I outlined before. For the concrete impact and statistics, it would be a little early to have reliable statistics on that. As members of the committee have mentioned and as we recognize, definitely there are issues with respect to human rights defenders and journalists. We're well aware of that and we recognize that.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Obviously, as you said, there are major issues in Honduras, with the law sometimes not being enforced and certain crimes not being investigated. Where do you think change needs to take place, and how does that change actually happen? What's the next realistic step in improving the police force and the justice system as a whole?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

Changes definitely need to take place to ensure progress on human rights. I think that is certain. In terms of what steps need to be taken writ large, the capacity of the justice institutions has to be improved. I think we're well aware that the impunity rate in Honduras is extremely high. In short, somebody who commits a human rights violation or a crime as of now is most likely to get away with it. This is simply because the institutions are extremely weak. There are not enough qualified people to investigate and enough qualified people to prosecute and so on.

One of the things that needs to be done writ large is a strengthening of institutions. How is this done? Through training, technical assistance, and the provision of equipment. The Honduran institutions over time will need to absorb this and put this into practice.

Again, I highlighted a number of cooperation undertakings that we have been doing specifically in this respect. For instance, we have been providing some specialized equipment for the investigation of crimes. Of course, a number of these crimes are related to human rights; some others are not. It's the strengthening of institutions which is the key challenge for Honduras.

In a broader context, it's not only the human rights institutions and the justice sector institutions. As a general proposition, Honduras is challenged in terms of development and the institutions which do not function the way that Hondurans and we would hope they would.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Could you please give our committee an update on the initiatives of the Hernández government regarding access to justice? Do people feel like they can complain about human rights abuses, labour issues, environmental matters, etc.? Has the government legitimately acted in their defence?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

Mr. Chair, I highlighted a number of initiatives in my opening statements. One in particular in terms of access of citizens to complaints and redress mechanism, is this 132 hotline that they have put in place, which is quite significant. It's a little bit like an ombudsman or a human rights commission, where people can call and report human rights violations. They can complain. What we hear is that follow-up is done, at least to a certain extent, to some of these complaints.

I think that this also sends a message more generally within Honduras that human rights violations cannot simply happen and go unreported. There are some mechanisms that are in place to address and to redress. There is also, beyond the 132 line, an institution. The national human rights commissioner, CONADEH, is the broader institution within which this hotline has been set up. I will not go as far as to tell you that this institution functions very well; I cannot say that. But at least, again, there are some new steps that are taken to provide citizens with access to complaints mechanisms and follow-up.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We go now to Mr. Vaughan, please.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you for the opportunity to ask some questions today.

What difficulty does the justice system have? If it's a failing justice system or an incomplete justice system, how does that defend Canadian interests when investments are made? In other words, for Canadian companies, corporations, NGOs working in a country with an ineffective justice system, how does that impact Canadian interests on the ground in Honduras, in terms of their protection, but also their ability to pursue fair treatment under Honduran law?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

It is challenged. I think that first and foremost the weakness of the institutions affects the Hondurans themselves, that is for sure. In terms of Canadian interests specifically, nothing specifically comes to mind in terms of instances where Canadian organizations or enterprises would have been affected, but for sure it makes it a more difficult environment to operate in.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Do we track the interaction of Canadian institutions and the law in Honduras as a measuring stick?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

We do not do so systematically. However, as a matter of fact, when there are issues that arise between a Canadian organization or a Canadian enterprise and local authorities in Honduras or elsewhere, usually the Canadian organizations or enterprises report to us and they ask for our support.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Particularly inside the mining sector, do we also track the other side of that shadow? For example, mining interests quite often come into conflict over local land disputes and come into conflict with people protesting and therefore those protestors have their human rights challenged by a failing justice system. Do we track the impact that Canadian investment might have in generating the problem not just in terms of the impact on those Canadian companies but to make sure they live up to their obligations to be responsible investors?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

As a general proposition, in Honduras and elsewhere we follow the activities of Canadian organizations, including Canadian companies. When there are issues that arise in terms of social conflict and the various claims that are made, these come to our attention either by the organizations themselves or we do proactively monitor them. Again, as I presume you are well aware, the Government of Canada has put in place a number of activities to support and encourage Canadian companies to abide by corporate social responsibility standards. We're very proactive in the sense of reaching out to Canadian companies and making them aware of these standards and these expectations.

I know, for instance, that in a number of countries in Latin America we have conducted specific seminars for the attention of Canadian companies and also for the local civil society organizations to have dialogue and discussions on best practices in the extractive sector, in mining in particular, so that companies and civil society organizations can be better aware of what the norms are out there and what the expectations are. This, as a matter of fact, we conduct in a number of countries in Latin America.

The last point I will mention here is that we have also helped establish what we call mesa de diálogo, tables of consultation between government, civil society, and enterprises in many countries of Latin America and the Carribean specifically on mining issues.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

That being said, often the first alert that we get as Canadians and the first alert that we get in our ridings is from the activities of church groups or NGOs that are on the ground as well as inside Honduras and countries like that, where they are supporting civil society to pursue and protect human rights. That may stand in contrast to political or economic objectives of Canadian companies. We're currently in a climate where the charitable and political activities of charities are being called into question by Canada Revenue Agency.

Is there any threat to the important role that charities in Canada play in protecting human rights in Honduras, which may be in direct conflict with Canadian investments in Honduras? Is there any worry that the policy of auditing charities that do political work may in fact inhibit our ability to provide protection for human rights in Honduras as a result?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

Mr. Chair, I would believe that this is an area that is a little bit beyond my expertise. The treatment of charities in Canada is not.... I think there are probably people better than I to answer that question.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Let's try to focus it clearly to where I think it is one of your areas of responsibility. If part of your mission in Honduras is to protect human rights and to speak out on that as part of the international treaties we're signatories to, if Canadian organizations, NGOs, charities, and church groups are acting in concert with your mandate but are in conflict with the Canada Revenue Agency's mandate to not be political, how do we make sure that the activities that cooperate with one wing of the government are not being undermined by the policy of another wing of the government and as a result human rights are put in harm's way?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

I can attest that our diplomatic missions, our embassies abroad, interact very regularly and often with civil society organizations, local civil society organizations and Canadian ones as well. This I can attest to as a fact.

On the issue of how Revenue Canada manages charities in Canada, again, Mr. Chair, with due respect I think that this is an issue that is beyond my area of expertise.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.

We'll go now to Mr. Schellenberger, please.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Through the partnerships for development innovation program, the Justice Education Society has also worked with Honduran law enforcement and justice institutions to reduce the impunity by providing training and tools such as crime scene kits. This interests me very much. When Rick Craig was here, he said that law enforcement didn't have the tools or didn't know how to investigate a crime scene. You have said that 570 justice professionals have been trained. Is this recently, or has this been over some time, and does the program still go on?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

The program ran for a number of years and was completed at the end of 2013. That being said, training that is provided in the context of institutional strengthening projects is useful, but the challenge of enhancing the capacity of an institution is ongoing. You may have trained so many people in one field, but there's always more training needed in other fields.

We can look at how many years it takes to train people for Canadian police forces or security forces. It takes years. So in the context of Honduras, again, there are steps and progress that are being made, but it takes time.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Would some of these people who have already been trained train people to follow them or to increase this so the training is always growing? Is this being done?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

Often in our cooperation projects we conduct what we call train-the-trainers activities which specifically enable what you suggest. However, I would be hard-pressed to provide you the specific information on that specific project. I'm sorry.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Okay.

After it arbitrarily dismissed four supreme court judges in 2012, Congress passed legislation empowering itself to remove justices and the attorney general. To your knowledge, does the current Government of Honduras continue to stand by this decision?