Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2014

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Can you explain the role of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda in the aftermath of the genocide? Has it been successful in convicting many of the Hutus who fled into the Democratic Republic of Congo?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

Oh my, you're asking me a political question here. From what I have seen, my observation would be that I think justice was served as well as it could be, given the number of perpetrators in this nation. I could probably speak more to the gacaca courts that were held here, which was the traditional court that was established in Rwanda many years ago and was brought back to see to it that justice was done.

What I have observed is that beyond what we could ever imagine, there has been more reconciliation here than I think anyone could have ever thought.

As far as the ICTR is concerned, I know there are many genocidaires and those who were masterminds behind the whole crisis, who are still out there. I think that the international community has to be very committed to seeing that these individuals are brought to justice.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Chair, do I have some time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Your time has expired.

Mr. Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you for your testimony and first-hand experience.

My question has to do with exactly what you were referring to in terms of assistance to children born of rape. As I understand it, the Rwandan government provides government assistance to survivors of the genocide, but does not provide assistance to the children born of rape. They do not quality for such assistance.

I was struck by a statement you made that it's important for the children to connect with someone who really cares. In this instance, they are almost lead to believe that their government doesn't care.

Would it not be important to try to get the government to extend such assistance to the children of rape, particularly the kind of psychiatric and psychological assistance that you mentioned? It would be important, and government assistance could help to provide it.

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

I totally agree with you, 100%, on that. It doesn't make any sense that these children have absolutely no benefits. They are a burden to everyone. That would be the perception, and that should not be the case.

Personally I don't think it makes any sense that they do not have the same benefits as genocide survivors.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Would there be any role that Canadian parliamentarians could play, among other issues bilaterally in our relationship with Rwanda, in terms of perhaps representations to our counterparts in the Rwandan parliament to try to encourage the government to provide such assistance to children born of rape?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

Yes.

I think that would be very wise, actually, to encourage parliamentarians here to make a move to have these children cared for as well.

The Rwandan government, from what I've seen, is obviously financially strapped, and they have even cut back on some of the benefits for genocide survivors. I think it would be a stretch for them to include others as well in the benefits that are provided. Yet, at the same time, I do believe that it's only just.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

As I say that to you, I have to make full disclosure. I think we're not in a good position here in Canada, because, as of 2012, we terminated our own assistance to Rwanda. My sense is that petitioners must come with clean hands. We have to look back to see if we can renew the assistance to Rwanda.

I think there is a mistaken perception because Rwanda has maybe 6% or 7% growth. There's a lack of appreciation that some 45% live in poverty at the same time that there is that growth dimension. Amongst those who are the most vulnerable are children born of rape.

We, as a government, perhaps need to do two things. One is to provide assistance to Rwanda, maybe targeted assistance to children born of rape. That would be a good way of renewing our own bilateral relationship with Rwanda. At the same time, this would give us standing as parliamentarians to then make representations to both the government and the parliament for them to do the same thing.

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

I am very happy that you said that. I'm very happy that you said all of that. I'm totally in agreement with you. I would also have to say that anyone who visits Rwanda would probably have no understanding of that statistic that you just quoted about 45% poverty. Rwanda puts on a very good show. It is very clean. It is very orderly. That's number one. Good governance, everything, is orderly. But all you have to do is go to the valley, any valley, and you will find the truth. It's these children that you are talking about, and it is the children of these children. Unfortunately, many of these children then also turn to prostitution, and they themselves have children, and it's perpetuated.

So yes, I am 100% behind what you just said, and I'm very happy that you shared that.

Thank you.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'm also wondering if you have any comments on how Rwanda has undertaken its national process of reconciliation. Again, part of that reconciliation, it would seem to me, would be to aid the children of rape. But have you any appreciation or comments you want to make about the national reconciliation process undertaken by Rwanda and, again, if there's any way that we in Canada, as a government, as parliamentarians, can assist in that regard?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

They have been very active in reconciliation, obviously. There has been a lot that's happened on an individual basis. Even in the work we have been doing with HOPEthiopia Rwanda, we have been connected with their commission on truth and reconciliation. I don't know what I can say about this. They have also, with open arms, welcomed anybody who has come in with new postures on how to actually facilitate reconciliation. To be quite honest, I think this nation has been inundated with ways to reconcile, and a lot of reconciliation and forgiveness has actually happened. There have also been situations where there has been forced forgiveness, in a sense—you know, forgive and move on type of thing—which, obviously, does not work. It is a process, and I think the government now is beginning to realize that and is giving a little more grace, I think, in that process.

This is a very interesting nation to be called to. There is very obviously peace, but at the same time I will be honest and say that there are tensions under the surface. It's only 20 years post-genocide. There has to be a lot more conversation, a lot more education, a lot more opportunities for people to share perspectives and views, and I think Rwanda is making tremendous efforts to do so.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Could I have a quick question maybe?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You're a little over, but that's okay; we have time.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

My quick question is this. I have had a long involvement with both Ethiopia and Rwanda, but I was wondering how come you chose those two countries.

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

We actually have a vision for east Africa. We're now flanking east Africa. No, to be honest, we started in Ethiopia. I came in 2009 with a team of counsellors. The fellow who was helping me lead the team said, “You got blindsided. Of course someone with a maternal heart would be brought to a land filled with orphans”. So my heart is in Rwanda. I love these people.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Schellenberger, go ahead please.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you.

Again, thank you for your testimony today.

I'd just like to clarify one thing here. It's already been said that nearly 45% of the people in Rwanda live below the poverty line. Is Canada not in the middle of a commitment to provide $13.5 million over 7 years? Has that completed, as Mr. Cotler has said? If it's still in the midst, what impact is this money having on alleviating poverty in Rwanda?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

I'm sorry; I can't answer that question.

My understanding is that there is no longer funding available for Rwanda from Canada. That was my understanding as of a couple of years ago.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

The Canada to Rwanda bilateral economic development assistance terminated in 2012. There was, however, Canadian involvement—what you mentioned—that began in 2010; it goes from 2010 to 2017. The $13.5 million is in reference to that project, which is still in existence, but it's a specific project with an NGO.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Okay, thank you.

More than 67% of the women who were raped during the Rwandan genocide were infected with HIV and AIDS. Do you know how many people in Rwanda today are HIV-positive, and can you tell me what treatment they may be receiving?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

I'm sorry, I don't have the statistics on the number of individuals who are HIV-positive at this point in time. But ARVs are free to those who are HIV-positive. I believe the funding for them comes from the Clinton Foundation. In regard to treatment, ARVs are flexible. There is not just one regimen of ARV available; if there is a problem with one, there are other alternatives.

So those who are HIV-positive have easy access. From our experience, the majority of the women I work with are HIV-positive, and they respond very well to the regimens that are available to them here. I say “very well”; I have one woman who was diagnosed 19 years ago—she was infected during the genocide—and she is still well and strong.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you.

In your view, what lessons can donor countries such as Canada draw from the Rwandan experience, particularly in terms of the provision of support to survivors of sexual violence and their children?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

Canada can provide grants to grassroots NGOs. By grassroots NGOs, I mean those that are really down in the slums working with these individuals and who will commit to long-term work, NGOs connected with locals, with the nationals, that can actually implement the work that needs to be done.

I really can't stress enough the long-term commitment, especially in relation to the individuals we're talking about today. Quick money will not help; long-term commitment will.