Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2014

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

In your view, are there particular ways that Canadian parliamentarians could contribute to reducing the stigma faced by survivors of sexual violence and their children in conflict-affected countries?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

Education is huge in this area. I'm very pleased to see what is in the high school curriculum, at least what I've seen in Alberta. I think it is extremely helpful, and educating kids is a great place to start.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Mr. Benskin, please.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you for your testimony. In an odd way it's actually quite heartening to hear of some of the successes of the work you're doing. This study, from my perspective, is really about what we can learn about dealing not only with the survivors of sexual violence used as a tactic of war, but with the children.

My colleague Professor Cotler brought up the fact that the government assistance available is not accessible by the children. Since the children are the future of the country, leaving these children—or abandoning them, if it's not too harsh a word—seems to be something that will undoubtedly undermine the progress that is being made in that country.

What kind of assistance is available? I think you mentioned that in 2010 a project was put in place to help young men between the ages of 18 and 35 who are children of rape and that there is yet to be a facility of the same kind available for young women.

Besides that, are there other programs that are accessible to children of rape?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

There will be a facility for young women later on in the year 2015, a similar facility. It's not solely for children of rape. It is for individuals who have succumbed to drug and alcohol dependency, which many of these kids end up falling into.

As far as support goes, I have found that there are a few NGOs who are offering support for these kids in school. Many of them are gaining support in that way. For the women who come to our organization we sponsor all their children for school. Whether they are children of rape or not they're all sponsored the same.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

You mentioned before the importance of family and how the victims are forming their own families by coming together through their shared experiences. Do you find the same thing happening for the children of rape? I guess part B of the question is this. What kinds of efforts are being made to help the parents reconcile with their children and find that bond, or at least release that contention between the two of them because of how they came to be?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

As far as the question about the children goes, we are finding the same thing with the children. They are finding common ground, which brings them together. They become mutually supportive. It's as if the women and the children become one large family. Women will tend to the needs of another woman's child and so on. It seems they're quite supportive, holistically supportive in that sense.

The other question, I'm sorry, what was the other question? I've lost it.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

So have I.

Oh, yes, part B was, what efforts are being made, if any, to help the parents reconcile with their children or is that part of the same process?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

Sorry about that.

One thing that I should mention about Rwandan culture is that women are often valued by the fact that they have children. If you have a child, that's marvellous. If you have 10 children, that's fantastic. That factors in, which might sound very peculiar, quite well in regard to helping the mother to connect with the child. Often these women can come to a position where they realize that the child is a gift, no matter what the condition of the way the child was conceived. This was a gift and this gift was entrusted to her, and it is a blessing.

If you come to that position it's a lot easier to care for your child and love your child. Not all women get to this place obviously. Of the women I've worked with maybe half of them have come to that position. That piece of Rwandan culture has factored in well to a mother relating to a child, but the psychotherapy has helped tremendously. It's helping the women to get in touch with their anger and everything that's come out of the trauma that was experienced and begin to realize the child is not the reason for their anger. That's hugely healing. Then to have the child...as the mother receives the child, the child then opens to the mother.

There's always the issue of who the dad is; the child wants to know the dad. That's an issue I think every child has. There is always that little bit of contention there, but it is interesting the more you get people to talk.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I do have one more question that you did touch on a little earlier. Part of the focus of this study is for us to learn from this experience so we can put into place better responses to areas that are going through this now. Ten, 15, or 20 years from now we're going to see the same kind of results in areas like the DRC, which is going through the same kind or a similar kind of crisis where rape is being used as a tactical weapon.

You touched on it earlier, but in your recommendation what types of things can we put into place, as far as how we respond and how we target our resources goes, both human resources and financial resources, in areas to better respond and deal earlier with this type of crisis and the results?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

In regard to human resources, I believe that we have a lot of education that can be passed on. Training of trainers is a big thing here in Rwanda and in the DRC. It would be greatly received, very well received, because again, as I said, psychological assistance and psychiatric help is really difficult to get in this region.

As for financial resources, I really do believe that supporting grassroots, local, and nationally founded NGOs that are really compassionate and whose goal is to walk long term with people would be a very good investment of finances.

It sounds very short and sweet, but this is what I've seen that works.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Some things may be complex, but not always complicated.

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

Do you know? The interesting thing about genocide is that it's all about dehumanizing people. These women have been dehumanized. What gives them a sense of being a part of humanity is walking with another, another investing time and effort in them, and for them to see, “I'm of value. I actually have worth. I'm not that snake I was told I was.” This is hugely valuable to seeing these people recover and seeing this nation not suffer long-term ramifications of sexual violence.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Benskin.

We have just a couple of minutes left, and I seek the indulgence of the committee to ask a couple of contextual questions.

The genocide took place over a very brief period in the first half of 1994, and obviously anybody who was a victim of rape at that time, as a practical matter, had to be old enough to be raped and is now 20 years older. I'm just wondering, first of all, what the age range is of victims of rape who are still alive today. That's question number one.

Question two is this. Are you dealing only with those folks and with their children or are there other people in the mix of women you're dealing with who are not directly linked that way?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

There are other people in the mix. We're not dealing solely with these women. We found it actually works quite well to incorporate others with them. It helps normalize their experience, actually.

Yes, we are dealing with individuals, and probably the youngest would be 25 because she was raped at the age of 5, but she's the youngest I've dealt with. I'm sorry, I do not have the statistics in regard to those numbers. I think they'd be very difficult to obtain because the majority of women, I believe, have still not come forward. I think they're talking in the range of 500,000 women who were raped during the 1994 genocide.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

The reason I ask that is partly because we actually, genuinely, don't have a good way of conceptualizing this here, so we just have to ask. Also, it strikes me that the kinds of needs you have are going to change over your lifetime. Obviously some of the issues relating to reconciliation with a child of rape are issues that were either dealt with well or poorly 18, 19, or 20 years ago, and now we're presumably dealing with a woman who was raped, became pregnant, and had a child. The child is now in their late teens. I think, in fact, all the kids would be within a very narrow range of time if we're dealing with the direct victims of the genocide.

I guess that is one thought, where you actually see a generation that is very clearly defined in terms of the children as a result, not necessarily the mothers. With the children I would think there would be a narrow band in which you could identify who those people are.

This actually raises a question. Would it be the case that among people in that age range, essentially people who are 19 years old, a substantial proportion of the population of Rwandans of that age are more or less defined by their age in the eyes of those around them as being people who are likely to have been the product of rape?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

Not necessarily so, at least that's not been my experience.

The majority of the population of Rwanda is between—I can't exactly remember the age range. I think they said 65% of the population would fit into this youth and young adult spectrum. With that being the vast majority of the population, even that group aged 19 to 20 years. No, it doesn't seem to be the case that people automatically assume that they are the product of rape.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Okay.

I have one last question. You mentioned one woman who, at 19 years of age, was infected with HIV. I had assumed it was the case that all the women who had been infected with HIV at that time had now passed away, but that is obviously not the case. Is this woman an exception? Are there fairly few who survived from that period who were HIV infected, or was there a larger number than I imagined?

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

No, there was a huge number that were infected. Also, you have to remember that the Tutsi population was about 10% of the population of Rwanda at the time, just to give you an idea of the numbers. She is definitely an anomaly. There are only two individuals who are still living who were diagnosed a year post-genocide, yet it seems like the ARVs here are really effective on the strain of HIV that is in this area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That's very helpful.

Thank you very much. You've been very helpful to us and we are very grateful that you were able to take the time. I don't know the time zone difference but I'm guessing it's fairly late in the evening, so thank you for staying up for our benefit.

[Glenda Pisko-Dubienski]

You are very welcome. It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Colleagues, could we just hang on a second. I have another item of business I want to deal with.

On the 27th, we adopted a motion regarding Leopoldo Lopéz. The way the system works is that goes into our minutes but nobody knows about a resolution unless we put out a press release, and we can't put out a press release unless you agree to put out a press release. So I'm asking your permission to put out a press release saying that we adopted that motion on the 27th.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.