Evidence of meeting #51 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rwanda.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Sorry, Mr. Vaughan, but we're at 7 minutes and 20 seconds. I have to go to our next questioner, who is, as I understand it, Mr. Sweet.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Chair, I am going to give it to my colleague Mr. Hillyer to ask some questions, but I do want to clarify a few things.
Canada has a reputation and continues to have a reputation of, per capita, taking more United Nations High Commissioner refugees than any other country in the world. I know in the community in which I live, Hamilton, Ontario, we invest millions of dollars, and when I say we, the federal government invests millions of dollars in settlement services for refugees, as well as for immigrants in regard to all kinds of services, medical, psychological, language, employment opportunities, etc.
Last year I was on the border of Jordan and Syria, where we've committed to take more refugees. By the way, 60% of those will be coming in on a very amazing program called the private sponsorship of refugees, which means communities actually get involved with the government and assist them. Many of them will have access to pastoral counselling and psychological help in the communities they'll be in. I was on that border and I was with the royal Jordanian guard. They informed me that of all of the countries that made a commitment to help Jordan actually handle the huge refugee crisis that they have, at that time the only country that had lived up to its promise was Canada, to purchase some water trucks, some trucks to transfer refugees from the border to get them to the camps, to assist them psychologically and mentally, for security, because a lot of al Qaeda and ISIS were actually trying to get across the border. The brigadier-general who was briefing us was profoundly grateful. In fact he said, “Canadians we know are our friends”.
I just wanted to put that on the record to be clear regarding the investments that the Government of Canada is making on behalf of all Canadian citizens in regard to refugees everywhere really.
I would say one more thing. As all free countries, we have a challenge between those who are asylum seekers and those who are United Nations High Commissioner refugees. We invest millions of dollars in security screening to make sure that we keep Canadians safe as well for those who land in our country whose identity we can't readily confirm; in fact, on some occasions they actually destroy their documents. We go through all kinds of efforts to make sure that legitimate refugees have a safe haven. Just as importantly, or maybe even more importantly because we are the Canadian government, we make sure that all necessary security screening is done to assure that Canadian citizens are kept safe.
I just wanted to make sure that was on the record among the other comments that were made.
I'll give the rest of the time to my colleague Mr. Hillyer to ask any questions.
Conservative
Conservative
Jim Hillyer Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Okay.
Thank you for coming.
This is my first day on this new subcommittee, and I know that the focus of this study has been on dealing with the children of rape from the Rwandan genocide. I wonder if, with your experience, you can comment a little bit on the genocide itself. As you know, after WWII the United Nations made their “never again” declaration, where they would never let a genocide happen again. I remember writing a paper for a master's degree. I called it “Never Again and Again and Again and Again”, because when it happened in Rwanda and when it happened in Cambodia, the international community made a conscious decision not to call it genocide until a couple of years after.
Can you say anything, in one and a half minutes, I guess, about what we can do to not just help deal with the after-effects of a crisis like this but also to prevent a crisis like this?
Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual
I think it just comes down to the fact that a lot of the hatreds between people come from ignorance and a lack of education. I suppose one thing Canada could do is support education around the world, and I guess listen to the warning signs. We knew what was going on in Rwanda, but we didn't really seem to care.
I don't know what else to say other than that. I think it just comes down to educating people.
Conservative
Jim Hillyer Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Would you say that with this particular crisis of the children of rape, if we don't deal with it, it could lead to more tensions again and more...? For instance, you talked about how they're hushing everything up. It's just building up tension again, and maybe we're not looking at a genocide but more violence.
Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual
Yes. We already see that it's flowing over into the Congo. That's where the génocidaires are. There are skirmishes across the border all the time.
So yes, for sure it could happen again. It wouldn't surprise me.
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Thank you, Ms. Montgomery, for finding the time to join us.
One of the things I was keen on when we decided to do this study was that, unfortunately, if one is cold about it, unless we can do things for this generation that this has happened to, such as fund post-secondary education and so forth, and find other ways to help them deal with their own PTSD, they are kind of lost. One of the reasons I think this discussion is important is that this type of action is still happening. It's happening in Syria. It's happening in DRC. My interest is in taking lessons from this.
As we've learned through the Holocaust memorial, there are signs. We've learned there are things that we have to be aware of and that we have to keep this in the consciousness. Through the truth and reconciliation process in South Africa, we've learned that as long as we keep these events alive and in the mind, it helps prevent this type of thing from happening again, which seems to be the antithesis of what is happening in Rwanda now.
In terms of helping individuals prepare for what is to come in the aftermath of Syria and in the aftermath of the DRC, as part of our arsenal in terms of aid, what do you think would be the key things we would need to learn about regardless of the cultural differences? The cultural differences are important, but we are human beings, and we are all affected by things exactly the same way. How we respond to them is where the cultural differences come into play.
How can we better help the countries and the communities of the future deal with this type of violence?
Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual
In the Congo, if it ever ends.... The conflict there seems to go on and on and on, and I don't know how many millions of people have been killed, not to mention raped.
I am very impressed with a lot of the people in Rwanda who are working on this issue, Rwandans who have done some studying abroad and who understand the issues and understand what needs to be done. As is often the case with many of these problems, I think there is not enough money. I think supporting local groups, the grassroots groups and what they're doing is the best thing we could do. I don't think sending in professionals who may or may not understand the cultural situation is going to help. I think it's better to partner with people who are doing that work in the country and to give them any support they need, whether that means training or financial things. A venue for people to meet is, I think, one of the things they need in Rwanda, for example. They need a place to meet and they need materials.
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
I agree wholeheartedly. One of the things we have been hearing about, for example, which has been successful, is HOPEthiopia. They were talking about the work they were doing bringing children and their mothers together and bringing those families together to actually create their own family units within that shared experience, which is giving them support and, from what I gather, facilitating that type of activity—not necessarily sending our viewpoint or our psychologists there—and actually training people in mental health services while understanding the cultural aspects of that community or that country.
Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual
You asked me if I had met any Canadians who were doing work there. In fact, one of the guys I met was actually with HOPEthiopia but was in Rwanda. He found it very, very difficult partly because of the trust issue. It takes a long time, and that's the problem with sending outsiders into the situation. If they don't know you or where you came from or what you're doing there, they're not going to open up to you.
I was lucky in that sense that I had been there in 2006 and 2007 teaching, so I had made a lot of contacts and I was able to get people to open up to me because they trusted me. But that takes a long time, especially if you are in a warlike situation.
I fully support Canada's role in partnering with people who are working on these kinds of things. A lot of the Rwandans asked me if there was a way they could do a stage in a rehabilitation centre here in Canada, for example. I have no idea. Those are things that I really don't know. Other than writing to the people and asking, I don't know.
They really are hungry for information. It's not that they need to learn about what people are going through. They know that because they are all going through it. They need to learn different ways of dealing with it. They have a lot of creative ideas for dealing with it; they just need the resources. I don't think it takes a lot. We're not talking millions and millions of dollars. I don't think it takes a lot of money to provide things like materials to paint or things to do sculpture or any other kinds of creative materials.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Since these hearings are being held at your suggestion, why don't we do one more for you, Mr. Benskin?
NDP
Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Thank you.
You mentioned substance abuse, and this is not the first time we've heard about this, and prostitution. A lot of these children find their way to this method of hiding, living with, or dulling the pain.
It struck me that this again is one of the things we can do: we can collate the type of reaction to expect in these other countries. These are the types of reactions that are going to happen with these children and with these women who have been raped during the process of crisis. We can say, “Here is the information and here are the ways in which we can help you get and process that information, and you can take that and go and work with your communities in making those communities aware and helping them deal with that.”
Again, would that be something that would—
Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual
For example, they just opened their very first chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA, in Rwanda. They have never needed it before. In their culture, they drink milk.
This has become an issue in this next generation and they are having to address it now. One of the psychologists I talked to is working at the newly opened rehabilitation wing of a hospital and said they have AA meetings now. They've never had them before.
There's that kind of information, too, in sharing how we deal with it, but let's face it, it's the same issue in Canada. A lot of the mental health problems we have stem from the trauma people experienced as children. We have a lot of abuse here, a lot of sexual abuse, physical abuse, and psychological abuse that's swept under the carpet. I'm sure that if we started addressing that head-on, there wouldn't be as many mental health cases as we have now.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you very much, Ms. Montgomery. You have been very helpful to us. I had intended to ask a question myself, but you have helped us to answer it.
Something came out of Mr. Benskin's questions that I wanted to ask about. You said that people have mentioned to you—so I gather this happened more than once—coming here for what you called a stage. Help me: does that mean essentially an internship of some sort?
Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual
Yes. This one psychologist who I am so impressed by asked me a number of times.... But he has no interest in coming to live here. He wants to just come and.... He's the one who works in drug and alcohol rehabilitation. Because it's so new, he doesn't really know a lot about it, so he would really like to spend some time here. There's one place I was thinking of. When I cover courts, a lot of people are ordered to go to rehab centres in Montreal or Quebec or somewhere. I thought those would be good places for him to spend some time, just to observe how the counselling is done.
It was interesting when I was talking to him. He had a Rwandan father show up with his kid from Edmonton because they couldn't get proper care in Edmonton. This kid was out of control. He was taking drugs and drinking, and so on, and the father thought it would be good to take him to Rwanda where there weren't any of these problems, but when I met the kid and his dad, he was drunk—the kid was over six feet tall, one of these big 16-year-olds—so he had obviously found a way to get the stuff in Rwanda. I found it ironic that the father was bringing his kid from a first world country to a third world country to get him over his addiction. This psychologist, who has studied in England, would love to find a way to learn more about addiction.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
All right. That's helpful. Essentially there is some expertise here that they could use there, and one way of transferring the expertise over is to allow some kind of internships or something.
Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual
Right. Basically, it's how do you make those connections? How do you make those partnerships?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
That's very, very helpful. Thank you.
Thank you to all of our colleagues.
Ms. Montgomery, we really do appreciate your coming here. I think we would all agree that this has been very useful.
