Evidence of meeting #60 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ambassador.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Trinity—Spadina, ON
Have members of the diplomatic community compared notes on this? Have you talked to the Chinese or the EU representatives to see whether their investigations provide a comparison that we could evaluate this Canadian company against?
H.E. Dominique Rossetti
The only thing I can say is that my EU colleague, including as well my U.S. colleague, mentioned that we should be proud of what the Bisha mine is doing in their area. That's the only thing I can say.
On the Chinese, I have no idea, to be frank and honest with you, what they do and how they do it.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
I was just going to trying to catch....
I'm glad I caught your attention, Mr. Vaughan.
There is a report from Human Rights Watch, called “Hear No Evil Forced Labour and Corporate Responsibility in Eritrea’s Mining Sector”, published in January 2013, which does go into some of the other mines. You can look at that.
The obvious point is that the Bisha mine was the first one up and operating, and therefore any problems that have occurred there, chronologically could not have occurred at other places until a later date in time. Whether they're as good or worse or any of those questions, we can't say, but you can find some additional information there.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Trinity—Spadina, ON
In terms of the office that was established to assess these sorts of situations—the corporate social responsibility office—how have they been helpful in terms of resources that they've been able to deploy, or assessments they've been able to provide to you?
That's to the ambassador.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Trinity—Spadina, ON
The extractive sector corporate social responsibility counsellor was established in 2009. The office is up and running.
Have they been involved in any investigation or any assessment of this organization to make sure they are in fact complying with rules and regulations?
H.E. Dominique Rossetti
To be frank and honest with you, I don't know.
But what I know, as I say, is that the appointment by Nevsun of a vice-president of CSR, and of employees as well in the field who are fully dedicated to CSR, is probably a signal....
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Trinity—Spadina, ON
Okay.
In light of the fact there are no free elections, there's no established opposition party, and there's no independent media, and the fact you were accompanied on this trip by officials of the mining company, how are we to assess what Eritrean's think or what people not connected to the company, not connected to the government, think about the performance of this mine? How do we get independent verification that you're being shown the full picture as opposed to a selective picture?
H.E. Dominique Rossetti
It's extremely difficult to have a full picture. To be frank and honest with you, I've been in many countries in Africa, including now Sudan and Chad, and it's extremely difficult in any country to get a full picture. To know everything in Sudan, for example, is not easy. Many of these countries are characterized by opaqueness. It's very opaque and it's extremely difficult to capture that. It could be said for many countries in the region.
So now, if you talk to people, and we could talk to people, it's difficult as well in a short time to get their testimony about the situation. You can imagine why it's difficult for people to really talk about these things.
I was seeing people who were—how would you say it...? It's certainly not North Korea, where dialogue with people is not possible, even if I have never been to North Korea.
I would talk about Cuba where the dynamic is similar. It's difficult to know exactly what the situation is because you cannot address this very sensitive issue in a direct way. You can do it if you stay a long time and build up a climate of confidence with your interlocutors.
But when we discussed the economic situation, etc., you can really have a normal and open discussion with people.
The Vice-Chair NDP Wayne Marston
I'm going to have jump in here, as we're a minute and a half over.
Mr. Hillyer will have our last question for the government.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Macleod, AB
Thank you. I appreciate having a couple of seconds here.
To the ambassador, you mentioned the Chinese mine, but I was looking through the notes and I see that Canada's imports of gold and silver from Eritrea have gone from $2.9 million to $161 million in just four years. Is that basically from this one operation, or are there other maybe smaller scale Canadian operations working in Eritrea as well? Or is this vast increase basically from this one mine?
H.E. Dominique Rossetti
We didn't really discuss that during my last visits, but as far as I know there were four companies: three Canadian and one share company, but in fact the Bisha mine is a share company. I just heard recently there is a new company that is to start business in Eritrea.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Macleod, AB
Yes. I saw that Sunridge Gold, another Canadian company, is also going to be starting up in 2015.
A lot of these human rights violations seem to come up during the construction of this one mine. Has there been some investigation of Sunridge Gold as well during the construction process of their mine? Have any human rights violations been reported as part of that operation?
H.E. Dominique Rossetti
As Mr. Reid said, the issue over the Bisha mine was in 2008. So 2008 is already seven years ago, and what is happening in British Columbia at the moment...the people refer to this period of time. So at the moment, I cannot say.
However, as Mr. Reid said, we don't think there are any violations. I could imagine that the other Canadian companies are very aware of that.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Macleod, AB
Lastly, you were talking about the 18 months of national service and that it could be military or forced labour. I think Scott may be able to shed some light on this as well. You said some people were released and some were not. I'm just wondering, how are they that chosen? Are some of the ones who are not released from the religious minorities? How does this work, or do know why some are kept in national service?
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
We ask this question over and over again. The ambassador and I were at the same meetings. He may have additional information, but in general we could not get a firm answer as to what the criteria are that cause some to be kept in and others to be released. The impression I got, and it's only an impression, is that a significant majority are released at the end of the 18 months, but that is only an impression and it could be wrong.
I also get the impression that people who belong to the more nomadic, pastoralist populations for whom it would be a meaningful hardship for them to be away from their families are normally released quickly so they can return to their communities. I was told specifically that if a woman develops a relationship and wants to get married, she can be released. The negative side of that may be the basis for Mrs. Grewal's concern about the treatment of women.
However, these are all, unfortunately, our speculations based upon the speculations of those whom we asked. People seemed sincere in their efforts to give us concrete answers, but they were unable to do so.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Macleod, AB
Ambassador, have you any additional comments regarding national service?
H.E. Dominique Rossetti
Just two elements.
The first one, I think, we mentioned, in fact. The military aspect of the national service is only six months and after that you need to be regularly trained. So the national service is not just military. That's number one.
Number two, it's interesting because we met the ministers, we met the presidential adviser, we met our honorary council, and their children have to do the national service as well. It's interesting to see that they are not excluded from national service. But I would say that the more educated you are, the shorter your national service would be.... You don't get an exemption, but you can have a more defined term.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Macleod, AB
A quick one, then. In your notes as well, Ambassador, you mentioned that some employees of the mine—I'm not sure if this is with the national service—are paid quite well. Is that the case for everybody in the national service, whether military or labour? Are they paid a living wage?
H.E. Dominique Rossetti
No, I talked about the employees at the the Bisha mine, like a truck driver. A truck driver has an important job to do because the stuff is coming from west to east, and so their salary is twice the salary of the minister.
Regarding the national service there is a difference. The salary is not really a salary; in French and English there is a difference. I know it's difficult because in English it's always a payment.
In French we call it une solde. So it's a different issue. If you are in national service, you don't have the full salary. If you become an employee, you have the full salary, a real salary.
Une solde is not the real salary. It's like during conscription, as it is just enough to pay for your cigarettes and very few things. So that's the nuance. It's not a salary when you are under the national service. It only becomes so after, if you are employed by the company. So at the moment in the Bisha mine there are only employees, there is nobody under national service.