Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 31st, 2015

[Justin Laku]

It's because the African Union has a department of security and peace, and the department of security and peace got a recommendation from IGAD. IGAD is the mediating team of Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Kenya, and Djibouti. Those are the five members mediating between the government of South Sudan and the rebels. IGAD made the recommendation that for us in South Sudan to move forward, we needed to have the findings of what took place in South Sudan. Without those findings, it would be difficult for us to do even the conflict resolution healing process.

That's why the recommendation from IGAD was sent to the African Union, and the African Union then appointed this independent body to go and investigate the crimes that happened, or what happened in South Sudan. They were in Juba for six months. The report was well documented. They visited most of the places, met with all of the witnesses, and made recommendations. They submitted their report to the African Union last month.

They were supposed to release the report with the findings so that we can be sure about who is accountable, about who did what and when, and the way forward. During that time, we went for a meeting. They were supposed to release the report. Unfortunately, they said to us, no, they were not going to release it because it would spoil the peace process.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Finally, have any of the members of the independent commission spoken out in regard to that report?

[Justin Laku]

They cannot speak out because of the ethics involved. When you sign an agreement, you cannot speak for several weeks, or even several years. But we know what is happening. There's a leaked report and I can offer to share some of it with you, if you wish.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay, so that's not in the package you've left us.

[Justin Laku]

It's not in the package, but if you wish, I will share with you the leaked report.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Laku.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

If you have any additional materials that you want to share with the subcommittee on this matter, you can send them after the fact to our clerk. He will make sure they get distributed to everybody.

Mr. Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I want to thank you, Justin, for being with us today. You have been really a voice for the voiceless all these years.

Those of us who were involved at that time in seeking independence for South Sudan, which came about four years ago, listening now to your report today, are hearing a really disturbing portrait of tribalization, of corruption, of illiteracy, of repression, of impunity. With all the things you've been describing with respect to South Sudan, I feel a deep sense of not just disappointment but also pain.

This also now links up with what is happening with South Kordofan, the Blue Nile state, Darfur, and Sudan itself, where there will be elections for the presidency in April. Are we able to solve the issues re South Sudan and at the same time address the intersecting conflicts of Blue Nile, South Kordofan, Darfur, Khartoum, etc.? They seem to be overlapping and intersecting. Can one have a comprehensive approach that can deal with all, or do we have to deal with them one by one?

[Justin Laku]

I think you know very well, Professor Cotler, the CPA, the comprehensive peace agreement, was not comprehensive. It was not comprehensive in the way that the CPA did not solve the problems in South Sudan, but created more problems in Sudan.

First, when John Garang died he had many officers from the Nuba Mountains, from Blue Nile, and from the Angasina hills who fought with the SPLA in the south for many years. John Garang died and South Sudan became independent. Now what happened was that the soldiers who were in the bush with the SPLA for over 20 years were left to the mercy of the Khartoum government. There was no mechanism within the CPA, should South Sudan become independent, as to what would happen to the entities from Blue Nile, the Nuba Mountains, and the Angasina hills. What will happen to them? That was not put forward and the international community was short on that. That was one of the weaknesses of the CPA.

Second, the CPA was also short. In 2010 I was in the United States with Ambassador Lyman who was the peace envoy for the U.S. I told him that we should not only be focusing on the referendum, but we should put in place the mechanism on how South Sudan will govern itself after the independence of South Sudan. It is very important. South Sudan has 66 tribes. If we do not put in that mechanism for the sharing of the power, the governance system, then we will go back to square one.

They said no, let us get the independence. Once we get the independence we will sort out the rest. Last year I was with Ambassador Lyman in Washington at the same place and I asked Ambassador Lyman what we got out of that approach. That was the thing. The CPA was not inclusive. It was not comprehensive. Now Khartoum uses this weakness of the CPA to punish the Nuba Mountains, the Nuba who participated with the SPLA, because it says, you allowed South Sudan to get separated, you supported the separation of South Sudan, and now you have to pay for it.

It is the same thing with those in Blue Nile and the Angasina hills. They will now pay for the cost of their participation in the separation of South Sudan, yet the government of South Sudan cannot support them. The government of South Sudan cannot support its own citizens in South Sudan.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I'm sorry, we're out—

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes, okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We ran a little over on that one.

Mr. Sopuck.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

No, it's okay.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'll take it.

Thank you, chair. I was going to mention this and now after Mr. Cotler's question and the level of sophistication in the answer, this conflict emanates—its fundamentals—from 1955. There are a large number of players in this: individual states and different governments.

It would be good to get a visual from the researchers in regard to what the present situation is on the ground. I think Mr. Cotler's question was very revealing in the sense of the multiplicity of issues that are facing Sudan.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

A map?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes, and some of the etymology of these conflicts and where we need to go in the future to solve some of these issues.

I was going to ask something else and I'm almost fearful to ask it. But this new deal regarding the dam on the Nile, is this going to complicate things even more for the South Sudanese since this was put together with Khartoum and Egypt and Ethiopia? Actually it was Ethiopia and Khartoum, and Egypt has some strong feelings against it. Is this going to further complicate the issue?

[Justin Laku]

Yes. I studied in Egypt. Egypt was against the separation of South Sudan for many reasons because of the river Nile. Egypt gave South Sudan recently, almost three months ago, $25 million in humanitarian aid. In return they can send their researchers and scientists to Western Bahr el Ghazal where we have part of the river Nile coming from Bahr al-Arab, then we have part of it coming from the Sobat River, which is in the Baro-Malakal area, and of course the main one from Uganda.

The research would be to make sure that there's no loss of water in the South Sudan. The water should go directly to Egypt.

As for Ethiopia, they say, look, we suffered a famine in 1985 because we had water but we could not use the water for agriculture, so we ended up paying high prices. Ethiopia says they have to create dams for agricultural irrigation. Egypt says no, but Ethiopia says that the dam project will continue.

Most likely we are going to see a conflict or war in the region.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Mr. Benskin.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

I would simply be echoing the thoughts of my two colleagues when I say this. It's a whole heap of trouble. It's hard to know where to start or end at this point.

I visited South Sudan in January 2012, some six months after it declared independence. As my colleague Professor Cotler stated, upon leaving there was a sense of hope and faith that something strong could be built in this country. It is saddening to see what is happening.

In one of the visits I had—I guess it touches on the subject of child soldiers—we visited a police training centre in Juba. I noticed that the cadets were very young. These were soldiers who were transitioning or being trained to be policemen. I asked whether any transitional training was going on for these young men who had just come from a war and who are now being put in a civilian peacekeeping situation. Had there been any therapy, any transitional program, available to them to make that mental leap, because being a soldier is quite different from being a peace officer? Now we hear that child soldiers are again being recruited. I'm concerned. My concern is about what that generation brings to the country and to the community, being brought up, for lack of a better way of putting it, as killers as opposed to children, students, and givers to the community.

In your presentation I think you said that 90% of the soldiers—

[Justin Laku]

It's 75%.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Excuse me, 75% of the soldiers and law enforcement are illiterate. That's rather problematic on so many levels. I wonder if you would care to expand on that.

[Justin Laku]

I was there when you visited Juba and I attended the event at the hotel. There is one generation in South Sudan without education, from 1983 to 2005, and prior to that, from 1955 to 1973. When I say education, I mean that people know how to read and write properly.

The education system is broken.

First, there are conflicting issues. For education in South Sudan, English was the medium of communication in my time. In 1983, with the Islamization and the implementation of the Islamic law in Sudan, the curriculum was changed from English to Arabic. Arabic became the medium of communication. The whole syllabus changed from English to Arabic. Islam became the religion of the state. In 1990 it became even worse. It became the Islamic brotherhood, even worse. Now we have a full generation without education.

Those who are inside Sudan have a little bit of education, but in Arabic. Those who are in the bush have zero. We have ministers...for example, the chief of defence of South Sudan could not read or write, neither Arabic nor English. This is the chief of staff of the military, let alone the soldiers you are talking about.

Second, there is the salary issue. The salary of a soldier is 300 South Sudanese pounds. This is less than.... You divide that by 7.1, so it's less than $50. They cannot do anything. As a result of that, the soldiers use their guns at night to terrorize people to get more money, and this has become part of the corruption. Especially if you are a police traffic officer, it's even better. Then you can just give a ticket to any driver, and if the driver is a foreigner, that's even better because he cannot speak Arabic.

Now, after the independence of South Sudan, Arabic was removed from the constitution, so the medium of communication, the lingua franca, is English, yet 85% of the SPLA-SPLM, who came from the bush, cannot read or write English. Those who lived in Khartoum only speak Arabic, so you see all this confusion.

Now, what do we do? I think we should invest in education, because if we invest in education, then we have a better future. It will take a long time and the politicians will want to see a quicker result, but in development it is better to invest in the education of these children, because these homeless children, these soldiers that you are talking about, they will be the future for South Sudan, if we invest in them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Benskin.

To our witness, Mr. Laku, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming here. Your credibility on the issue, of course, has been vouched for by Professor Cotler. We are grateful you could take the time to be a witness before our subcommittee.

Thank you.

We are adjourned.