Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 28th, 2015

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Are you encouraged at all by the fact that the Inter-American human rights commission is there?

[Isidoro Vicario Aguilar]

That group of experts had an agreement with Mexico and the parents of all these families. It was very difficult for the Mexican authorities to accept the involvement of these independent experts. Quite recently they published a second experts report, and we, the fathers and mothers, are quite convinced that we can assist in the investigation of this matter.

The group of experts is to have a detailed investigation of what was done by the Mexican authorities to have clues to the possible location of the 43 students. That is why the parents of these families have made it public that we respect...and guarantees are given to those experts in the work being undertaken in the Ayotzinapa case.

We also call upon the Mexican government to accept all the recommendations that were made and will be made by those independent experts.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Professor Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I join my colleagues in expressing to you our condolences and our understanding of your pain and grief.

In your testimony to us today, you made a number of recommendations, including that we remove Mexico from the list of designated countries, that we encourage transparency in investigations, and guarantee the work of the experts, and that we guarantee the security and the safety of the parents of the 43 children.

In the letter referred to by my colleague Mr. Sweet, the ambassador says that the Government of Mexico condemns the atrocious crimes that were perpetrated, reiterates its commitment to bringing those responsible to justice, and then makes a statement that I'd like you to respond to. I quote, “The Government of Mexico has conducted an investigation which is without precedent in terms of its scope and transparency”.

What would be your response to that statement the ambassador made in his letter to us?

[Isidoro Vicario Aguilar]

We see that there is an intention by the Mexican authorities to abate or minimize what happened in Ayotzinapa in particular and in the Guerrero state and to express outside of Mexico that the Ayotzinapa case is an isolated case. This is what we regret. In the state of Guerrero in Mexico the reality is otherwise. That is why we are calling upon these concrete points to say that we were witnesses that these guarantees do not exist. We heard directly from Hilda, the mother of one of the students, that on a number of occasions the Mexican authorities tricked the parents. About seven days after what occurred, Mexican authorities informed parents that their children had been assassinated. Twenty-eight bodies were found in secret mass graves in the state of Guerrero. But thanks to forensic expertise from Argentina, we were able to prove scientifically that those 28 bodies did not belong to our students.

We also heard from Hilda that federal authorities, in their statements about these persons who had been detained and arrested, said that those persons participated in a pact and were thrown into a river near the city of Iguala. The Mexican authorities changed their version and said, “No, this did not happen. The bodies that were found in those mass graves are theirs”. But the students were hanged, drawn, and quartered, and thrown into the river. The Mexican authorities say that they were deprived of their lives and burned in a garbage dump near the city of Iguala.

We cannot give any credibility to the statements of the Mexican authorities. Independent groups have informed us that there is no probability or cases to show those things occurred in the garbage dump of Cocula as the Mexican authorities have maintained and reinforced. In other words, there are a great deal of shortcomings in the investigation done by the Mexican authorities for the Ayotzinapa case.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I will refer to your testimony and the letter from the ambassador. You were talking about Iguala. According to the ambassador's letter to us:

Like Canada, Mexico has...three levels of government: federal, state...and local. The crimes in Iguala were committed by local police in collusion with members of organized crime. lt should be clarified that human rights violations were not perpetrated by the federal government, army or federal police but by the organized crime gang responsible for the murders, acting with the local Mayor who belonged to a party different from the President's.

The ambassador is trying to say that the federal authorities have no responsibility or involvement in this. This has all happened at the local level, through local police in collusion with members of organized crime. What would be your response to that comment?

[Jorge Luis Balbuena]

We would like to be clear, Mr. Chairman, respect has never existed. It does not or shall not exist towards the average citizen with the federal government, state government, or local governments in Mexico. That is my first point. No respect, no transparency occurred. Violations of human rights continue to exist, and violence against us is on the increase on a daily basis.

I survived that night. I can tell you that municipal police did participate in that event, but it does not say in the letter how we were chased by the Mexican army, how after the shoot-outs occurred, they took us out of the hospital where we were, with the person who had a bullet through his mouth, and his mouth was totally destroyed. They took us out, beat us up, threatened us that we would disappear.

This is how they're in collusion, all of them, at all levels of government, from the municipal to the federal level, because one cannot exist without the other. That is self-evident, and we've known that for quite some time. There will always be collusion among them...and how the federal government had direct participation in the disappearance of my 43 fellow students.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Actually you're out of time, Mr. Cotler.

We turn now to Mr. Hillyer.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming today.

Just in your last answer, Jorge, you said that some of you were removed from the hospital. So after the initial attack, some of you were in the hospital and then were removed from the hospital and were beaten and threatened. Did you say that was done by members of the federal military? Is that correct?

[Jorge Luis Balbuena]

They took my friend with the bullet in his mouth to the hospital. That was the initial reaction. There at the hospital a person who said he was a major, with a number of other military personnel who had followed us, threatened us there. I feel extremely fortunate that they didn't take us out of the waiting room in the hospital, because who knows where we would have wound up. If they had taken us elsewhere, I would not be here today. But I can tell you that for the other colleagues who ran to save their lives, army patrols were patrolling the streets to find them.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

You were there during the initial attack and also in the hospital—43 people are missing still. There were 100 people at the beginning of this, so there were about 50 or more who survived the attack. Is that correct?

[Jorge Luis Balbuena]

A little fewer than 50 did survive, because we were about 100 students . Those who survived were able to flee. Those who stayed behind were corralled and picked up by the police. Some of them who went to the hospital stayed with us there, and the others started running away in all directions.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Do you have any idea why some were let go and others weren't, or what made the difference between those who were taken and those who weren't?

[Jorge Luis Clemente Balbuena]

As I just said a short while ago, the people they took away were people who they cornered, and they had been shot. There was a shootout, and they shot at them in the school buses, in the buses where we were. Those who they were able to arrest or catch were the ones who they were able to detain.

After the first shootout, most of the students ran—fled—and they were brought together and they were shot at again, and then they were able to pick up a few more. I was also brought fleeing, running away. Those who were able to get away were able to get away, but the others didn't.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

The only reason I'm asking these kinds of questions is that it's a serious accusation to suggest that the federal government was involved or at least, if not involved in the actual attack, has been involved in the cover-up since.

For us to be able to accept that accusation, I guess one of the questions would be this. Do you have any idea of the motive of the federal government? Why would the government want to...? Were they involved in the initial attack or are they just trying to cover up for their friends? What would be the purpose of cornering a busload of students and attacking them? What do they have to gain?

[Jorge Luis Balbuena]

In Mexico we know that one of the most respectable institutions, which no one has dared accuse, is the high-level institution that is the army. Obviously, the federal government will never accept that they were involved in the events of the 26th and 27th because that would mean losing respect for all these institutions that are responsible for our safety.

At one moment local police did participate, then it was the army. We do not know who gave the orders, why they did it, or if it was because we were Ayotzinapa students, and that's why they acted in that fashion. Obviously, the federal government will never accept that, because it's like putting a noose around its neck.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

The other issue that really concerns me about this is the fact that there was a mass grave uncovered of, you say, the remains of 23 people or 28 people who weren't your fellow students from this attack, which means there are at least 28 people who were killed recently somewhere near that area.

Do you have any idea, or are there any stories around the same time in the same area of a large group of people disappearing, or do you have any idea who those 28 people might be?

[Isidoro Vicario Aguilar]

In fact, what we are saying is that this case of Ayotzinapa is a case of great importance. It's a case that has been taken on with all of the necessary seriousness that has to exist, because of the pain of the parents, the pain of the mothers. In fact, it's not a game; it's pain that is still being felt after seven months.

But we are also saying that the case of Ayotzinapa is not an isolated case. There are thousands of cases of this type, and unfortunately an awful lot of the families have not been able to make this information public because the conditions do not exist security-wise to go to some authority and to say, “My family member was taken, was executed at the hands of public servants.”

In Guerrero, the situation is extremely complicated. In Iguala initially, in just one of the clandestine graves, they found 28 bodies. Because of this, today we have found more than 57 bodies in clandestine graves close to the place where the events occurred. Of these bodies that have been found today, only some of the family members have had the bravery, the courage, to denounce these cases. We can understand perfectly well that there are no conditions that exist in order to denounce a case of this type. This is why this presentation is being made today. We are requesting that the Parliament take into account these requests to the effect that Mexico be removed from the list as a safe country.

Just recently, over the past two weeks during the holiday season in Acapulco, Guerrero, there were more than 47 persons who were executed. This data stems from official reports. There is a grave situation of violation of human rights in Guerrero. Every day there are people who are executed, who are kidnapped. Therefore, this request that is being made to this honourable Parliament today is with all of the seriousness that this case is worthy of, because we want to indicate as well that, because of this, the parents, the representatives, and the students from the school have taken on the task of reporting this grave situation outside of Mexico. It's of great concern, the situation that's being experienced today, not only in the state of Guerrero but also in several states. In other words, the Mexican government is facing a grave situation of human rights.

Today in Mexico, there are violations by authorities. There is collusion with organized crime by authorities of both local states and the federation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Benskin, as is usually the case, you'll be batting cleanup for us.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Welcome to the three of you, and I add my voice in offering not only my sympathy but my prayers for those students who are still active and doing what they feel is best for the country, and also the parents and families of those students.

I hope you bear with us in this committee as we try to just process all of this and understand this a little better.

At one point in your testimony, you said that there were, between 2007 and 2014, some 26,000 individuals who have gone missing or have been murdered. So that I can get a better understanding, what is the motivation? Are these politically motivated acts? Are these linked wholly with the cartels? What's the main understanding as to why these students and these 26,000 people have disappeared or been murdered?

[Isidoro Vicario Aguilar]

This question about the alarming number of 26,000 stems from official data. This data does not come from any specific agency in Guerrero. These are official data from the Mexican government, and this is why we lament the fact that there is no efficient effort by the authorities taking place, because we cannot explain why this number is so high and so alarming.

We want you to understand that in fact the authorities are not properly carrying out their work. They are not carrying out investigations. Justice is not being sought. There is not a good administration. We believe that for this reason these cases continue with impunity. This is why we lament the fact of the unfortunate case of Ayotzinapa that has come to public knowledge with respect to these crimes that occurred in Mexico.

For the list of 26,000 persons who have disappeared, they are forced disappearances, and it's not because of social organizations and civil organizations that fight for human rights. There are families who are experiencing this problem. In fact, it is a very grave situation, where organized crime is concerned at the local level, at the state level, and at the federal level.

All of these issues facing the Mexican government give rise to these figures, but above and beyond saying who is perpetrating these acts, for the number of families that are facing this problem, this is a situation that is very grave in Mexico. Over the past two years, just in the state of Guerrero, there were extrajudicial executions of 12 social combatants. Most were combatants from indigenous communities. That was in only the past two years.

Thank you.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

For my own clarification, then, these incidents are a combination of organized crime activities and political activities. Is that accurate?

[Isidoro Vicario Aguilar]

We do not consider it important to make that differentiation. There is a serious concern to the effect that we have very high numbers in Mexico. It could be understood that way, but in fact, what does concern us is that in the case of Ayotzinapa, there were more cases that have remained in impunity.

But to say that from this figure of more than 26,000 Mexicans who disappeared.... This is a number that is truly alarming, and this is why we cannot really explain what investigation work is being carried out by the authorities. We understand that there is not a will to do so by Mexican authorities in order to deal with this situation. From day to day, there is an increase in the number.

Also, what we were saying is that these figures are the official figures, but let us recall also that there are many similar cases by means of which the people do not decide to denounce because of risks and because of repression, both from organized crime and from the authorities.

We cannot establish a difference as to when it's an act committed by organized crime, because what we were saying is that the case of Ayotzinapa is like many similar cases. There is a direct participation of public servants and organized crime as well. This is within the local area. Within the government area, these patterns are also repeated. At the federal level, these patterns are also repeated. This is why we have had no response whatsoever to this alarming figure from the Mexican government.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

I understand what you're saying. The reason I asked the question is just for me to get a better understanding. You spoke of collusion. I'm trying to understand whether you're expressing that the collusion is between the levels of government, or is that collusion between government officials—municipal, federal—and organized crime. Are these acts of intimidation by organized crime, or to quell dissension with regard to government activities? The reason I ask those questions is to try to understand that difference.

I understand that the deaths of your children are the deaths of your children. What I'm getting—if you would like to comment—is that you want answers. You want an investigation that clearly says this is what happened to our children, and hopefully, this is why this happened to our children. Would that be correct?