Evidence of meeting #68 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was iranian.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ali Alfoneh  Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies
Mark Lagon  President, Freedom House
Mark Dubowitz  Executive Director, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

May 5th, 2015 / 1:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Mark Dubowitz

Thank you. That's a great practical question.

I think the fundamental problem here is that the administration is going to unwind the sanctions regime, and the U.S. sanctions regime—the economic sanctions, the sanctions that are most punishing to the regime—are essentially nuclear sanctions and are linked to proliferation. So what you're going to see over the next 12 to 18 months, if there is a deal, is most of the toughest sanctions, economic sanctions, being suspended and then eventually unwound, and we will not have economic leverage. I think the right construct is to go back and begin to look at sectors of the economy, elements of the economy, individuals in the economy, and begin to re-sanction and re-designate them based on human rights abuses, and do so in a way that affects their economic interests.

I'll give you one concrete example. The Revolutionary Guard own something called Khatam al-Anbiya. Ali is very familiar with Khatam al-Anbiya, having done a lot of research on them. Who are they? They are the prime contractor. If you do any major construction project, if you're building bridges or subways or energy platforms, Khatam al-Anbiya has been winning no-bid contracts worth tens of billions of dollars over the past number of years. Khatam al-Anbiya is owned and controlled by the Revolutionary Guards. At some point the United States and the Europeans are going to lift nuclear sanctions on Khatam al-Anbiya, and Khatam al-Anbiya will go back to business. That means that any constraints that have been imposed on Khatam al-Anbiya will be removed, and they'll be able to generate tens of billions of dollars in contracts by doing business with energy companies from Europe and industrial companies from Japan. It will just feed their resources, and they will again be more flush with cash. That money then will be sent to the Revolutionary Guards to continue regional breakout, nuclear breakout, and domestic repression.

So why not, if you modify SEMA, designate Khatam al-Anbiya as essentially a threat to international peace and security that's likely to result in a serious international crisis? By emboldening this key linchpin of the Revolutionary Guards' economy, you're essentially creating an international crisis on multiple grounds. If, under SEMA, you designated Khatam al-Anbiya as a revenue-generator for Iran's vast system of domestic repression, you'd then begin to actually reconstruct economic pressure. I think you can do this alone. You can do this in concert with your allies in Europe, which is critical. And I think you can do this in concert with U.S. legislators. Remember, 18 or19 months from now there will be a new administration. Now is the time to begin to actually lay that predicate, so that when a new administration comes into office, whether Democratic or Republican, they're going to be looking for ways to try to push back against Iranian behaviour.

That's a kind of technical construct that I think Canada can do very well, given its leadership on human rights, within the confines of a modified SEMA.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

That completes our—

Oh, hang on. I was about to stop, but I see that Mr. Lagon has something to say.

2 p.m.

President, Freedom House

Dr. Mark Lagon

Mr. Hillyer's question is a very good one. Let me just give a brief answer.

The United States should not have lifted the comprehensive sanctions on Iran because of the nuclear talks. That said, the United States and Canada should have targeted sanctions on human rights abusers. In the United States, there's consideration in our Congress of something called the global Magnitsky human rights accountability bill. Using the example of sanctions used against human rights abusing and corrupt officials in Russia responsible for the death of the lawyer Sergei Magnitsky, there's an idea of passing legislation that would allow for targeted sanctions against those responsible for corruption and human rights abuses in any nation with illiberal governments. That's a tool that's worth using and would allow both the United States and Canada—if Canada were to pass similar legislation—to hold those to account, a deeply important step.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Just to be clear about this, is this actually a law, or is it a proposal for a law that is currently being worked through Congress?

2 p.m.

President, Freedom House

Dr. Mark Lagon

It's a proposed law. It was introduced before and not passed. A narrow bill that had to do with the specific case of targeted sanctions on Russia was passed in 2012, and it had good effect. Now the leading Democratic senator on the Senate foreign relations committee, Senator Cardin, is introducing legislation for a global version of these targeted sanctions.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

So we should look for Senator Cardin's proposals. That's what we would look for if we want to see this model?

2 p.m.

President, Freedom House

Dr. Mark Lagon

Indeed, I'm happy to mail it to you.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

We'd like to see it.

If you send it to our clerk he'll follow up.

I see Mr. Cotler trying to catch our attention.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

For our witnesses, very recently the Canadian Parliament unanimously adopted justice for Sergei Magnitsky proposed sanctions along the lines of the global Magnitsky act. Foreign Affairs Minister Nicholson, with whom I've been in discussions, has said that the government will introduce, pursuant to our unanimous motion, global Magnitsky-type legislation, which would if passed do exactly what you suggested regarding Iranian violators.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all our witnesses today, Mark Lagon and Ali Alfoneh from Washington, and Mark Dubowitz here in person in Ottawa.

We appreciate your accommodating this very tight schedule. You had a lot to say and limited time in which to say it, but you've certainly been very helpful to us.

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we are adjourned.