Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 4th, 2015

[Khue-Tu Nguyen]

I think first and foremost would be the unconditional release of all prisoners of conscience. We need to get them out.

Another important one is to get rid of all the vague articles in Vietnam's penal code that criminalize peaceful dissent, because they use those articles to say these guys are criminals when they're not.

I think another third one Dr. Nguyen might want to address now.

[Dr. Thang Nguyen]

Yes, and that is workers' rights, the right of all workers in Vietnam to form their own free and independent labour unions.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

In your opinion do you think the ordinary—

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I hate to do this, but I have to cut you off. You've gone past four minutes.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That's okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I'm sorry about that.

Just to be clear, when you say “civil society”, you effectively are using that as meaning organizations that are non-governmental. Would that be correct?

[Dr. Thang Nguyen]

That's correct. I'm talking about the genuine grouping of citizens and individuals in society to address their own issues and problems, and also to change the social rules that govern society. But that is not being allowed in Vietnam.

Only the GONGOs are allowed in Vietnam. They are created by government to deceive the world that there is a civil society, which doesn't exist in Vietnam.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you for that clarification.

Professor Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I also want to commend the witnesses for their informed and graphic testimony on matters relating to the assault on fundamental freedoms, on trade union rights, and not only political prisoners but also the plight of those who are political prisoners in terms of torture, forced confessions, and the like.

As was mentioned as well, you've characterized the Vietnam government as being a totalitarian government, as being a dictatorial regime, which leads to my question then. How can international pressure be effective on a totalitarian regime using, for example, the fundamental freedoms issue that you mentioned, freedom of speech, press, assembly and association?

And I have a specific question I would put to Dieu Cay and that is how can that be effective in securing the release from prison of your colleague, Ta Phong Tan, who is now, as you mentioned, on a hunger strike? Those are my two questions.

[Dr. Thang Nguyen]

To address the first question, Vietnam today is no longer the Vietnam that existed back in the 1970s. It has opened its door to the world, because it needs to survive economically. Starting last year, when China erected an oil rig in the South China Sea—which is part of Vietnamese territorial waters—Vietnam became very lonely politically because China was its only ally up until then.

They have no allies right now. That's why they're looking out to the western world, especially the U.S. and Canada, and other countries. That's why they want to be part of the TPP so much, and that is where you have leverage. They need the TPP, they need trade, they need security, and they need partnership with other countries. They will make commitments and promises that they don't truly have the intention of upholding or implementing, but that's the second step. That's why we need to build a civil society that can force the government to comply with its commitments under international treaties and covenants. Those are the two steps that have to go hand in hand.

We did see some improvements wherever we tried those dual approaches with Vietnam.

[Dieu Cay]

Sir, I think we could request that the Parliament of Canada pass a resolution asking for the release of all prisoners of conscience, especially in the case of Ms. Ta Phong Tan. Her case is special because she was my fellow activist, and the things we did were very similar. She has been in prison for a long time, and in her cause her mother has committed suicide by self-immolation in protest of the government's action. I think if the government of Canada passes a resolution, makes it a high profile case, and appeals to other communities to join, that would be a very effective means to address the issues.

Furthermore, it would be a great idea if Canada, the United States, and European countries made up and publicize a list of all the prison wardens who have committed brutalities and atrocities, make it public, make each of them persona non grata and forbid them from entering those countries.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

We'll go now to our next questioner, Mr. Hillyer.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Nguyen, you said that in addition to bloggers, writers, and journalists, they have also been targeting obscure farmers and people like that. Why?

[Khue-Tu Nguyen]

It's part of their land expropriation. They take lands away from their proper owners. Although I only mentioned bloggers, journalists, farmers, and those in rural areas, they also target religious leaders as well—and not even leaders, but participants of non-state-sanctioned religious organizations. That goes against freedom of religion. So they target anyone and anything that in any way expresses their voice or in any way expresses any opinion contrary to that of the communist party of Vietnam. It's not just farmers and bloggers, it's anybody.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay. In the Gulag Archipelago, the regime would target pretty much anyone just to create a state of fear so that you wouldn't know whom you could trust, so you could not even secretly associate, it seems. Does that go on as well?

[Khue-Tu Nguyen]

Yes, very much so. It's really disappointing to see that in the 21st century this is still happening in places in the world like Vietnam. To speak from a personal point of view, in class I learned a lot about the dystopian societies, and we read a lot of these novels that are fictitious, they're not real. However, when you read them, you definitely see parallels to what happens in Vietnam in this totalitarian regime. It's unbelievable. It's like a work of fiction but it's unfortunately not.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

You also talked about state-sanctioned religious organizations. Are there religious organizations that the state is okay with?

[Khue-Tu Nguyen]

It's because they are controlled by the state themselves; they're not independently organized.

[Dr. Thang Nguyen]

I will add that in Vietnam right now all religious activities or organizations must be registered with the government and approved by the government. They have used this requirement for two purposes. One is to crowd out and neutralize.... Actually, they have outlawed and banned many of the churches, including the largest religion in Vietnam, the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam. That's the largest. It remains outlawed to this day.

In place of that, they register and approve a state-sanctioned church they created, and in many cases they appoint communist cadres to serve in the leadership of those churches, to control those churches. Then they will take the land, the properties, the temples, and the churches from the outlawed ones and pass them and transfer them over to the one controlled by the government. To the outside world it looks like there are churches, there are religions, there are religious activities, but they're all controlled by the government.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Do the people who are going to the church of their choice have any sense at all that the churches represent their faith? Do they even show up?

[Dr. Thang Nguyen]

Many people choose not to go to those churches; therefore, there's a movement of house churches in Vietnam, and they have been severely, brutally suppressed. For instance, between 2001 and 2004 alone over 4,000 house churches of the Protestant Montagnard mountain people, an ethnic minority indigenous people, were burned, destroyed, or closed down, and very few have opened up now, only those that are allowed by government and actually run by the government. A number of Montagnard have tried to continue to stick together and conduct house churches, but with the new law that wouldn't even be allowed because they must register and be pre-approved by the government.

[Khue-Tu Nguyen]

Another way that the government tries to show that it's trying to improve is this new decree 92, where it says that outlawed church organizations can register if they want. However, in order to be able to register, they need to have been already approved by the government for 10 or 20 years. It puts these non-state-sanctioned religious organizations in a catch-22 situation, so it's for naught, that decree 92.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Hillyer.

Mr. Benskin, please.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you, and please let me add my voice welcoming you back.

Thank you, Mr. Dieu Cay, for your very in-depth and moving testimony. My question is for you. We have heard a number of witnesses speaking to the hunger strikes that are either ongoing now or that people engaged in before, you and a gentleman that we had for previous testimony, your friend who is undergoing a hunger strike at this moment. To me, it seems a very internal thing, because we don't hear about it unless individuals like you come to us.

I guess that's where the bloggers come in. Is there an estimate of how many bloggers are dedicated to the human rights situation in Vietnam and how many of those might be in Vietnam at this point?