Evidence of meeting #105 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was turkey.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
NDP
Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for sharing with us today information that's very important.
I'd like to hear a little more about the academic community. We've heard about Academics for Peace. We've heard about the academics who were arrested after the petition call. I'd like to know about the state of academic freedom before the coup and what the active role is today for Academics for Peace.
Visiting Professor, Department of Political Science, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
Thank you for the question. I think it's one of the most important parts, honestly, because for many other professions, human rights violations or nondemocratic structures are not a big problem. If you are an engineer somewhere and working in a factory or a company, maybe it doesn't bother you because you're continuing with your regular life, but as an academic you need freedom of expression. You need to be a freethinker. You need to be free to express yourself, to communicate with students, to express yourself in a written way, and to communicate with your colleagues worldwide. All those things are essential.
I can share a very personal experience with you. I studied in Germany between 1991 and almost 2006. I was there for my bachelor's and master's degrees and my Ph.D. I spent 15 years in Germany and received German citizenship. I was established in Germany. My daughter came to work in Germany. I married over there. Everything happened there.
Because of the democratic future of my country and because I was idealistic, I decided to go back to Turkey in 2006 to work at the university in order to contribute to the development of my own country and to contribute to my people becoming free. That was during the accession process to the European Union, and we had a completely different picture of Turkey. It was a completely different Turkey. It was promising. It was flourishing. The new generation was open to the world, learning foreign languages and communicating. It was such a great future that I saw in 2006.
When I consider this decision with today's eyes, I can't comprehend this. I can't understand how this country has changed that much. I think there is still this ideology. There is an ultra-nationalism that has just captured my country right now. There is still hope, but this hope is not going to exist for much longer. We have to act. We have to show the regime that this is enough. The international community, the academic community, and all the other professional groups, and especially NATO, Turkey's allies, and Turkey's close friends in the European Union, have to change their perceptions and policies toward this regime.
I can understand realpolitik. I can understand Syrian refugees: 3.5 million Syrian refugees are located in Turkey. I can understand why the European Union and the western community are not acting as we would hope from them, but still, normative politics—ethics—should play an important role in every political decision that we make, especially in international relations. As an academic, I can say, going back to your question, that it is impossible to make science and impossible to work as a scholar under those circumstances right now in Turkey.
Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies
Can I add one point? I think what makes the crackdown on Turkish academics really egregious is the fact that it is not just a purge of academics; it is more. Cancelling their passports, pensions, and health insurance, blacklisting them so that they can no longer be gainfully employed, even in the private sector, basically amounts to a social death penalty. These people are condemned to starvation; they can't receive health services, they can't leave the country, so they're basically prisoners within the country. Some of them are in jail. Most of them are not in jail, but in a way the whole country has become a prison for them, so I think it is really important for Turkey's transatlantic allies to find ways to save these individuals who are condemned to a social death.
I want to raise the plight of one of my former students. Hüseyin Edemir, who was wrongfully accused of being a member of a terrorist cell in Turkey and jailed. Then, when he was let out, he had to swim across the Turkish-Greek border, ultimately ended up in Switzerland where he received asylum, refugee status, very quickly. He is now building back his life. He is trying to build back his academic studies. I think the case of Hussein should inspire us in the west to do the right thing, by reaching out to scholars at risk, whether they're graduate students or professors, offering them refuge, offering them new homes, so they can begin to build the lives that the Erdogan regime destroyed single-handedly.
Liberal
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question goes to Professor Caman.
Turkey, throughout its modern history, always played an important role as a western ally. In the Cold War, it was an important bulwark against communism and its spread. In the post-Cold War order, Turkey played a really fundamental role, I think, in the 1991 Gulf War, in the maintenance of the no-fly zone in northern Iraq, and in helping that come to fruition. Certainly, the Kurds of northern Iraq prospered and were able to receive sanctuary from the attacks of Saddam Hussein. In recent years, we rave, as I think we should, about what Germany has done in receiving refugees from Syria, and what Canada has done in receiving more than 40,000 refugees from Syria. But three million Syrian refugees have gone to Turkey. I know there are questions about their future there, but to receive three million people, I think is something that needs to be underlined. Turkey has played a really fundamental role in the maintenance of international stability.
Professor Caman, can Turkey continue to play that role when its own stability is being undermined by attacks on democracy? I ask that as an MP who is quite appreciative of what Turkey has done in its modern history. I think that question needs to be asked. I think friends and allies have to ask difficult questions of fellow friends and allies, so could you go into that?
Visiting Professor, Department of Political Science, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
I think that's a very tough question. It's obvious that Turkey is a NATO partner and played significantly important role during and after the Cold War. As you mentioned, Turkey was part of the west, acting in harmony with NATO with its allies.
On the other hand, it's also true that Turkey is located in a very problematic region. Especially after the Arab Spring, the region was quite unstable. This is a big question to discuss about which policies or approaches contributed to this mess and this complexity, and the resulting problems that we face nowadays.
On the other hand, Turkey helped Syrian refugees by opening its borders, but what would happen if Turkey had closed its borders? Most probably it was a very realistic choice to open the borders. I can understand humanitarian aspects of the decision-making process in Turkey. I can understand that the Turkish government did not act only according to its own interests, but I can't ignore the fact that the Turkish government is also using the chaos and instability in Syria for its own foreign policy nowadays.
When I look at the picture and what is going on in Syria, at Turkey's foreign policy generally, Turkey as a NATO partner is buying weapons systems from Russia. It's co-operating with the Russian military in the field in Syria. The Russian military opens the airspace that it controls in Syria to Turkey, so that Turkey can attack or bomb our friend the YPG, which it considers to be a terrorist group. Yet we know that this group has never attacked Turkey. Those people have been living in this part of Syria and are not PKK members.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I hate to end this, but the time is limited.
Mr. Erdemir, do you have a view on the matter?
Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies
Yes. I see Turkey as really the linchpin of the transatlantic alliance in southeastern Europe. However, under Erdogan's presidency, we see Turkey increasingly pivoting away from the transatlantic values and the alliance toward Russia and Iran. The hollowing out of Turkey's institutions, the rule of law and democratic tradition, I think is compounding this problem, as Turkey is finding itself a more comfortable space among the authoritarian and crony capitalist or state capitalist regimes of the world.
The question with Turkey is not solely the rights and freedoms of Turkish citizenship, but it is also about the future safety and security of the transatlantic alliance in the Middle East.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt
Thank you very much.
The final question is going to go to MP Sweet.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
I hope I can squeeze in two questions. One of the witnesses mentioned that the military coup was a gift from God to Erdogan. Do you believe that it was actually contrived by him and his regime?
Visiting Professor, Department of Political Science, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
Sir, there is a lot of speculation about it and a lot of indicators that could create a suspicious atmosphere about what happened in the coup.
I don't want to speculate about it, because we don't have enough facts to interpret the situation. One thing is for sure: this coup, if it was a real coup, was planned really very badly. After the coup there was an asymmetric purge in the Turkish military. I can tell you that over 50% of all admirals and generals in the Turkish military were arrested after the coup attempt.
If they really participated in this coup, I think the coup would have been successful because they were controlling half of the Turkish military. The Turkish military is the second-largest military in NATO.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Fifty per cent of the leadership, the intelligentsia of the military, were arrested, although it was a very flawed coup.
Visiting Professor, Department of Political Science, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
Yes, sir.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
We had a briefing the other day by an international expert who said that they felt the motivation behind everything that's happening in regard to Erdogan was that he really wants to be the power broker as far as the Islamic world and the Middle East are concerned, and be the Sunni power broker, competing against Iran and Saudi Arabia. How much truth do you think there is in that?
Visiting Professor, Department of Political Science, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
Thank you.
Erdogan is a very pragmatic leader, but on the other hand, we have to emphasize that he has an Islamist background, so in his imagination, his perception of the world, he has an enemy-and-friend scheme according to his ideology. Erdogan is very extremist. He's actually trying to increase Islamism in Turkey, that is for sure. However, it's very hard to say whether he can also play this role in the region and globally.
Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies
Turkish president Erdogan comes from a political tradition that's close to the Muslim Brotherhood and has often seen himself as one of the global leaders of an emerging network of Muslim Brotherhood dominated countries. However, following the collapse of the Arab Spring, Erdogan switched from being this transnational revolutionary to becoming a more limited, saving-his-own-regime type of leader.
When it comes to Iran, it's a very complex relationship. We call it a “frenemy” relationship. On the one hand, there is sectarian tension and competition between Erdogan's Sunni Islam and Iran's Shiite Islam. Nevertheless, both powers see each other as tactical allies in their challenge to what they see as a civilizational struggle against, again, what they see as a Judeo-Christian world.
Let me conclude with this: it's really unfortunate that Turkey is fuelling this type of antagonistic civilizational rhetoric, because Turkey itself is really the cradle where Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Baha'ism, and other faiths have basically flourished for centuries, if not millennia. Turkey, which should be the bridge-builder, the reconciliator, in the Middle East has become an instigator of religious intolerance and extremism under the rule of Erdogan.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Gentlemen, thank you very much. I know you didn't choose it, but we appreciate your sacrifice.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt
Yes. Thank you both, for joining us by video conference today and for providing some riveting testimony. This brings to a conclusion our study on the human rights situation in Turkey.
Thank you to all our witnesses who have participated, as well as many of the guests who have joined us to hear the testimony over the last number of days and, of course, to the members for their thoughtful questions.
With that, we shall adjourn.
