Evidence of meeting #130 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Ms. Anita Vandenbeld (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.)
Philip Tunley  President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

1 p.m.

The Chair Ms. Anita Vandenbeld (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.)

Welcome, everybody.

Thank you very much to our witness, Philip Tunley, who's here by video conference from Toronto.

My understanding is that Mr. Henheffer is not going to be able to make it, so we have just the one witness today.

This is our first meeting of our study on the state of the free press.

Philip Tunley is the President of the Board of Directors of the Canadian Journalists for Free Expression. We're very pleased to have you with us, Mr. Tunley. We'll start with your comments for about 10 minutes.

1 p.m.

Philip Tunley President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon to the committee. Thank you for inviting me to testify on behalf of CJFE.

I am currently the president, although you should know that I'm not a journalist. I'm actually a lawyer. My practice includes representing, defending and supporting the media in Canada. That's my claim to be the president at the present time.

In my remarks, I'd briefly like to touch on three key areas of the environment surrounding journalism today.

If I may start with the government environment, I think the committee knows it's been a challenging year for the media and free expression, in Canada and around the world. I'll give just three examples out of many, obviously, that could have been chosen. In the Middle East, first of all, I think as everyone's aware, we have an allied country whose government, according to U.S. security and intelligence services, may be responsible for the brutal murder of a Washington Post journalist in that country's own embassy. We usually think of embassies as a safe haven for travellers. This is one instance, but it's not the only one.

In the United States, we have a president claiming, in the United States district court, that he has absolute discretion to strip a long-standing, long-accredited member of the White House Correspondents' Association of his hard pass and his access to the White House and ultimately, of his career as a journalist.

Here in Ontario, we have a premier who believes he can divert taxpayers' money, provided to support the legislative and constituency responsibilities of his caucus, to fund his own private news outlet called Ontario News Now.

Those are three examples, all government actions. In my view, how Canadians and how Canadian laws and institutions react to these and other events in the government environment will be critical tests of our commitment, not just to the free press but also to the rule of law.

If I turn then to the economic environment, again, the committee will well understand the business climate for news media is another problem area. At a very high level—although there are lots of studies that go into more detail—two main causes are cited. The first is a major draw of advertising revenue away from traditional media that are involved in journalism, as we traditionally understand it, and towards social media that are not involved in journalism. That's the first cause. The other is a serious decline in audiences, particularly and significantly among younger generations.

It's really in that context that I looked at the finance minister's recent announcements, which include a trial balloon, I would say, on possible measures to address the resulting financial pressures on media. I have a number of points. First of all, this has rightly begun as a consultation, not a prescription, and I think that is a good thing. Government funding of our free press is controversial, even among journalists. It will be essential, for the government and for Parliament, to hear strongly held opposing views, on both sides, before choosing among options in this area.

I'm happy to take your questions on those issues, but I offer this. One of the options put forward in the finance minister's recent statement would give the tax credit to subscribers, rather than directly to media outlets. I have to say that appeals to me because it directly addresses one of the two underlying causes that I have just identified, which is the problem of declining audiences. This leads me to another thought. What about a tax credit for advertisers who place their advertising in major media?

Obviously, these options, however you structure them, are not going to completely avoid the need for a process to identify those outlets that should receive public subsidy, presumably because they are contributing to our values and our goals for a free press in Canada. This is where most of the debate and controversy arises. It's not an easy topic and we won't solve it in this hour, I'm sure.

However, these options would give both the public and advertisers a say in which media receive how much of the available government funding, if there is to be any. They also, I think importantly, subject the media who receive those subsidies to at least some basic market disciplines in terms of earning the support that the government may be prepared to offer or at least make available.

Lastly, I want to briefly turn to the legal environment, obviously the area that I know most directly and the best. In this area, I think we have a little more cause for optimism. A number of developments in recent years have been positive in, I think, the view of everyone who deals with media and represents their interests in the legal process.

The first, of course, was the passage by Parliament last year of the Journalistic Sources Protection Act. This brings long overdue protection to a critical area of news reporting, which is the protection of sources. I think you as parliamentarians all know that the ability to speak to the press off the record and to give background without attribution is critical. The discourse between sources and journalists and protecting that discourse, that discussion and that exchange of information from undue intervention in the legal system is critical.

The interpretation of the protections for journalists and sources created by that act is already before the Supreme Court of Canada in a hearing that will take place in the spring. We look forward to the court's interpretation.

The second legislative initiative I think is worth noting. Many provinces, including recently the Province of Ontario, have now enacted anti-SLAPP laws. Strategic lawsuits against public participation are, unfortunately, still far too common in Canada. They include actions brought by large corporations in Canada and others. Recent decisions by our Ontario Court of Appeal interpreting the new Ontario statute are very welcome in giving strong effect to the deterrent aspects of the legislation, particularly in terms of litigation that targets free speech.

I think Parliament has before it currently in the Senate the reform of the federal Access to Information Act. CJFE has contributed to that process recently, and we look forward to your deliberations.

In terms of the courts, courts across Canada continue to implement recent decisions by the Supreme Court that have strengthened key defences in libel actions. The defence of fair comment on matters of public interest is of particular importance to your deliberations, and that was strengthened by the court some years ago in WIC Radio. The defence of responsible communication, which was developed by the court and accepted by the court recently in Grant v. Torstar, has been applied now several times and is a very welcome addition to the defences for appropriate media reporting in our court system.

Where I think I would identify a need for more protective legislation and more judicial awareness and sensitivity is in terms of the role of the media reporting on our criminal justice system. I say, unfortunately, publication bans, whether they are imposed by statute or discretionary on the part of the judges sitting on criminal cases, really seem to be increasingly the norm, not the exception. I say it should be the exception, because our charter defines the right to a fair trial. Everybody talks about a right to a fair trial. It's actually the right to a fair and public trial. The public nature of a criminal trial is very important, and the ability—

1:10 p.m.

Ms. Anita Vandenbeld (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.)

The Chair

Sorry, could you come to your conclusion? It has been 10 minutes.

1:10 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Philip Tunley

Really, that was it.

The other aspect of the criminal system that is problematic is the production and assistance orders that are routinely made by the RCMP and other police outlets.

In summary, there's a lot for this committee to be concerned about, but also lots of progress that you can build on in the work of this committee.

Thanks.

1:10 p.m.

Ms. Anita Vandenbeld (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you very much, Mr. Tunley, for your presentation.

As a reminder, of course, our committee is a subcommittee of the foreign affairs committee. It's not a legislative committee, so our study is global in scope. We will be looking at the state of the free press around the world.

With that, of course, part of this discussion is to see what scoping areas, thematically or even country-specific, we could be looking at in our study.

I will start the questions in that regard with Mr. Anderson, for seven minutes.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being with us here today.

To start with, is there a market economy for media, for it to be able to stand on its own two feet economically, or do we by necessity require taxpayers' money to support the media industry right now?

1:10 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Philip Tunley

The free press has always been independent and will always find a way to fund its activities. There are other sources besides public money to support it. In the past, there has been support from political movements, from business leaders and from all areas.

At this time, the real challenge economically is the competition from social media. It's about getting the message out, obviously, but it's also about reporting on what's happening in Canada and around the world.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Would the position of your organization be, then, that the taxpayers have some type of responsibility to protect the industry from basically being uncompetitive because of changing technology?

Would your organization take that position, that there's some necessity for taxpayers' money to be involved in supporting media right now, or would you not see that as a necessity?

1:10 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Philip Tunley

I would repeat what I said. The question you're asking would be controversial among journalists. You will hear different views on both sides and you'll see that in the commentary on it right now.

As a spokesman for the Canadian Journalists for Free Expression, I have to say that there are times when it's more important for government to step up. This is a particularly challenging time in terms of business and other options for funding. There's room for government action at the present time.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

How do you avoid, I'll call it “contamination”, or how do you promote independence by anyone who's receiving government money?

As political leaders, we're accused of not being able to take more than a $150 or $200 gift or it will influence us, yet we see a massive commitment right now towards funding media in this country.

Around the world we see governments intimidating and influencing media. How do we avoid that? It's almost an inherent thing that happens when people receive government money, that they feel an obligation then to support it.

1:15 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Philip Tunley

The two suggestions I made in terms of routing the funding, if there is to be public funding, through subscribers or advertisers is a way to distance it. It takes the direct decision-making out of government hands. There's also the suggestion of setting up an expert panel.

At the end of the day, there won't be much controversy around which outlets today really are serving the interests of society and a free press, reporting stories on a current basis that are of interest to the press, that are supportive of our democratic process. There won't be a lot of controversy around that. It will be the major media, not the social media, that are doing that to a very large extent, not exclusively—

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Are you saying it will be the mainstream media that will present that information better than social media does?

1:15 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Philip Tunley

What I'm saying is that when you talk about funding the free press, you're talking about funding the fact-finding process, the news gathering process, which is really only undertaken by the major media and very few new online media outlets. I think we all know who they are.

Those are the ones who are doing the job of really ferreting out stories independently rather than just reacting to an ongoing political debate.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I'm not sure it will be as simple as that, but I want to ask you a little bit about the notion of a government-appointed committee to determine who can actually access those tax credits. You seem to be comfortable with that notion. It would make some of us very uncomfortable. Could you comment on that as well?

1:15 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Philip Tunley

I'm comfortable with it because we do it in all kinds of other areas. We set up arm's-length expert committees to fund the arts. We set up arm's-length expert committees to fund a variety of activities—universities—that need some independence from government to function effectively. I don't think there's any lack of will on the part of government or on the part of journalists to work out an institution that would work in our industry.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I get the sense that you don't think there is widespread cynicism about mainstream media. I certainly run into that in my riding. I'm just wondering if you would be interested in commenting on that.

People get their information primarily from Facebook and social media now. It's not from the mainstream media, when you look at the survey results. Are you suggesting we need to counter that, so that we elevate the one and then try to bring the other one down to the more realistic notion that it's more of a social conversation than it is a news outlet or venue?

1:15 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Philip Tunley

I think the answer lies in our notions of what is the journalism that is worth support. I think a lot of what appears on social media is not in that category. Some is, but not always. Journalism, to be independent, has to be actively fact-gathering and actively questioning those in power. A lot of social media is not. It's in fact the opposite of those things.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

That's interesting to me. I think there was a study out of Harvard University about CNN's coverage of the president's news in the United States. In their opinion, 93% or 97% of it was slanted in one direction. Would you consider that to be unbiased coverage from the mainstream news media?

For my second question, and I think I'm going to run out of time here—

1:15 p.m.

Ms. Anita Vandenbeld (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.)

The Chair

You have 30 seconds.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I'd like to have you talk a little about VPNs—virtual private networks—around the world, and the necessity for them. We have nations that are now banning them. I've talked to Internet security people who don't understand why we don't all subscribe to them. I'm interested in your perspective on that as well.

1:15 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Philip Tunley

I'm not an expert on private networks. I won't have a lot to say about that. It's kind of the opposite of journalism to be on a private network.

1:15 p.m.

Ms. Anita Vandenbeld (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.)

The Chair

You are out of time, in any case.

We'll go to Ms. Khalid for seven minutes.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for your testimony today. I think that journalism and journalists are basically the watchdogs of any democracy around the world, and their role is very important in ensuring that governments and states are acting transparently. The public has a right to know what is going on.

With that, I want to talk a bit about the impact of this phenomenon that is fake news, and how that impacts the freedom of expression of investigative journalism and mainstream journalism. We've seen, around the world, allegations of fake news impacting elections or swaying public opinion. What is your take on that?

1:20 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression

Philip Tunley

I would want to distinguish between what we can all objectively look at and verify is, in fact, fake news. It is knowingly reporting facts that are false, and is designed to disrupt and interfere with our democratic process, or other.... That, to me, is fake news.

There is also the phenomenon of the accusation. It's an easy accusation to make. It's one of these buzzwords now that has been popularized. The hallmark of good journalism is that, when challenged—“You are fake news”—a good journalist or media outlet can say, “No, here are my sources. This is how we went through the process of verifying, for your benefit, what we are saying.”

That, to my mind, going back to the earlier questioning, is what distinguishes what's worth supporting in any kind of system, whether it's in Canada or around the world—the journalism that is able to back up its claims and statements.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Do you think the phenomenon of the Internet and the easy access to information has created issues for the reporting of journalists to be able to get that news out accurately to the public of any state?