Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 4th, 2016

[Pacifique Manirakiza]

Definitely, because information circulates now more than ever. Information flows thanks to social media. Everything that happens to the second in Burundi becomes known around the world. In addition, as I said, the international community is still present in Burundi. It's not that Burundi is closed off. There are representatives from the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and human rights monitors from the African Union on the ground. In my view, those are all sources of information about human rights violations.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

It was suggested in previous testimony that an intra-Burundian dialogue would help resolve, at least in part, some of the tension that's occurring, and to really bring accountability to the human rights violations. I want to talk a little bit about the intra-Burundian dialogue. Who are the parties to this dialogue, and what are the prospects for success?

[Ketty Nivyabandi]

There are two dialogue efforts that are ongoing in Burundi. One is the internally led effort to bring all the parties together, including the government, the members of the opposition—most of whom are in exile—civil society, women, youth, and basically the whole spectrum of the Burundian society, to begin to talk and find a common solution to this issue. Of course, this is with the challenge of dealing with a government that has no intention to do so or shows no intention to do so.

This initiative is being led by the African Union, and it was happening in Arusha with the leadership of the President of Uganda and the former president of Tanzania. It has stalled because the government is not showing enough determination to go forward with the process.

At the same time, a parallel intra-Burundian dialogue is happening that is led by the government. It is, I would say, a semblance of a dialogue. It is happening within Burundi, and it brings in actors that are supposed to be representing various groups in Burundi, but in reality they are mostly government supporters. It is, I am afraid, a masquerade.

I believe efforts should be made to continue to support the internationally led initiative and put pressure on the Government of Burundi to go forward with these talks as an internationally led dialogue. It's very critical. In the event that this doesn't work, what we are looking at is a civil war.

As I am sure you are already aware, there are groups that are beginning to arm themselves. The other thing is that we cannot watch our people being killed every day without reacting. There are various groups that are amorphous. They are still not well organized, but they are there. We are watching a civil war that's coming and that's in the making if we do not act now.

[Pacifique Manirakiza]

Yes, I think the dialogue is essential given that, as I said in my presentation, the crisis is, above all, political. Dialogue is precisely the best way to resolve political crises. We have experience in that area. The experience has led to the Arusha accord, which is now being challenged by the current government.

One of the solutions I'm suggesting in my document is for Canada to support the efforts of the East African Community, which seeks to end the Burundian crisis through negotiations. Canada has experienced it first hand. I remember that Carolyn McAskie was there in the 2000s. She followed all the rounds of negotiations that took place at the time.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much. That's all the time for that round.

Now on to Ms. Hardcastle.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both of our witnesses here for their candid comments. I understand that the request and the purpose for your being here is about raising awareness for maintaining and strengthening scrutiny. As for Canada's role in that scrutiny, what would that mean for us in speaking out about torture? Can you talk a bit more about the UN commission report and the torture that Canada could be doing its part to respond to?

[Ketty Nivyabandi]

Absolutely.

Unfortunately, what is happening in Burundi is a crisis of enormous proportions. The kind of torture that is happening right now, as is documented in the UN reports, is very vicious and very targeted. It keeps increasing in its cruelty. We're seeing an evolution from the beginning, where people would be incarcerated and beaten, to now very vicious forms of torture, including sexual and gender-based abuse.

I think Canada has a very important role to play in ensuring that human rights violations remain a top priority. Just speaking as a human being, really, it seems as though our tolerance for violence has risen. This tolerance is becoming intolerable. I think a lot more can be done in terms of leading global efforts toward holding people accountable. One of the reasons this torture keeps taking deeper and more vicious forms is that the perpetrators are very much aware that they are in power and they have total impunity.

I think Canada needs to join OPCAT to urge Burundi to implement the torture prevention treaty. Amnesty—my colleague from Amnesty is here—welcomes Minister Dion's commitment to join OPCAT, and we look forward to updates.

You're very right that it's a very crucial and important matter.

[Pacifique Manirakiza]

I would like to add to Ms. Nivyabandi's answer because the issue of torture is also extremely troubling. To avoid repeating the answer that she gave, I would say that Canada could do more to document the cases of torture and possibly to bring to justice those found responsible. Sometimes, people are required to travel here and in countries with which you have co-operative relationships under criminal law. It is always very useful to show people that crimes cannot go unpunished. While they may go unpunished in Burundi, impunity is not welcome once outside the borders of Burundi. That is very important.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hardcastle.

Mr. Miller.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Nivyabandi and Mr. Manirakiza.

First, thank you for your courage. I hope the next time you come here, it will be to share your poetry with us.

[Ketty Nivyabandi]

It would be a pleasure.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I want to go back to what Mr. Anderson said about those responsible. Those people must be named. There are several international resolutions, commissions of inquiry, denunciations by western countries, so to speak, for lack of a better word.

Without international intervention, how interested is the government in making a change, in rectifying the situation and in following the rule of law? To that end, I would like you to name the state entities that are involved. We have talked about the ministry of the interior and the intelligence service. The youth group, which I assume has quasi-state status, is left to its own devices by political institutions. I would especially like to give you the opportunity to name the state entities that are involved.

[Ketty Nivyabandi]

Thank you for the question.

The Burundian government shows no intention of changing things. Therein lies the danger. The government uses the state apparatus to oppress the people. This apparatus includes, as you just mentioned, the ministry of the interior and public security, starting with the minister of the interior himself, who is responsible for the national police, whose abuses are well documented. There are also the abuses of the national intelligence service. People are often abducted by the officers from that service. It is usually in those rooms that people are tortured or they disappear and never return. We see vans with the plates of the national intelligence service abduct people in broad daylight, and we never see them again.

The serious part is that bodies are no longer found in the streets like before, because there was a lot of pressure from the international community, which suggests that people are often buried in mass graves, for instance.

There are the national police and the national intelligence service. The ministry of justice does not bring those responsible to justice and is often in cahoots with the Burundian government. As I said earlier, the prosecutor general asked that four lawyers who are against torture be eliminated. There is also the president's office and communications service. Basically, those are the major institutions that are involved.

You must understand that there is total control over the entire state apparatus. Even those who initially do not agree are basically forced to follow the government's instructions out of fear of being repudiated or of reprisals. This trend applies right across the government.

[Pacifique Manirakiza]

In addition to the institutions that are responsible, we must also say that there are state institutions that could contribute. It's very important that Canada also has this version of things.

International intervention is very important, but at the same time it is secondary. The state is the one that has the primary role of protecting the citizens. So how can we ensure that the government puts an end to these abuses and mistakes to, as you said, follow the rule of law?

Some institutions were put in place and are working in extremely tough conditions. With support, those institutions could help in one way or another. It's the same thing with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The commission is hard at work, but the current political and economic situation does not allow it to continue to fulfill its mandate.

It must be pointed out that, until recently, the Independent National Commission on Human Rights had an “A status” accreditation, which is granted to the most successful national human rights organizations. We could look at how to support these institutions and see whether they can help address the issue of human rights.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you.

There's time for one more question.

Mr. Tabbara.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you for being here.

I'll be quick.

My question is about the judicial system prior to 2015 and before the third term of the president's election. Was there any accountability? I know we've talked a lot about impunity within your testimony, but prior to 2015 were there checks and balances with the judicial system? Were individuals held accountable? Can you elaborate on that fairly quickly?

[Pacifique Manirakiza]

As I said, the issue of impunity is really a key factor that explains what is happening today. We refer to impunity in relation to crimes committed in the past. I have listed the major events that were actually recorded as having the most serious crimes, including crimes against humanity, war crimes and even crimes of genocide.

All those crimes have gone unpunished because the judiciary, which is embedded in the executive, did not fulfill its mission. The same situation can be applied today. Today's judiciary is like the one of yesterday. There have not really been any substantial changes. That is why—and I must stress this—there is an inherent relationship between the current crisis and previous crises. We cannot resolve the current crisis without looking at past crises.

Of course, the current crisis is very worrisome. Of course, it is urgent to stop the bleeding, as they say, but at the same time, finding a solution to the current crisis would be only a partial solution. If we want to solve the problem of impunity once and for all, we must also develop the solution with the previous crises in mind.

That is why I'm asking Canada to look at how it could become more involved from the outset in determining the mandate of the commission of inquiry that has just been set up by the United Nations. It should not be involved only in determining the mandate of the commission, but also in its operations, while keeping in mind, of course, the inherent and close relationship between the crisis of today and those of the past.

Thank you.

[Ketty Nivyabandi]

I fully agree with what Mr. Manirakiza is saying regarding the impunity prevailing in Burundi for many years. I wanted to still bring...it's true that we must find a holistic solution to the question of impunity and resolve the crimes that have been committed over the decades, as this is a cycle that keeps going on.

Right now we are faced with an incredible crisis, and that is the protection of civilians. Even though we've looked for a solution that is holistic, we must keep the focus on this. It is true that a commission of inquiry has been set up, but you know how it works. It will probably take a year or more in order to determine who the perpetrators are. What do we do in the meantime? What do we do about the human lives that are being lost today? How do we ensure that no more lives are lost, so that no more reports must be done in the future? What can we do today?

That is the urgency of the situation, and that's where I hope Canada can take leadership in ensuring that this crisis does not slip off the radar. We have so many crises happening around the world, but this ought to be a global one.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Just for clarification, Mr. Manirakiza spent some significant time in his testimony mentioning the complexity of the situation on the ground and that this isn't a Hutu-Tutsi ethnic problem; it's a political problem. Human Rights Watch was here last time and made that clear. Would you agree with that as well?

[Ketty Nivyabandi]

I agree that it's primarily a political problem, and those who are dying today are both Tutsis and Hutus.

There is a nuance that I want to bring in. There is a historical antecedent of ethnic cleavages, and because the current government, or at least its leadership, is issued from victims of a former genocide in 1972, you begin to sense the politics of revenge, and that revenge can take ethnic forms.

Unlike Rwanda, where the population participated in a genocide, I don't think that scenario is possible in Burundi. When you hear the hate speech—and that is a clear indication of something we should be careful of—that is made by leading officials of this government, then there could be incitements to have ethnic-based violence. Although it is primarily a political problem, it has possibilities of deteriorating into an ethnic aspect, as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you.

[Ketty Nivyabandi]

I agree with the general assessment.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you.

Colleagues, I ask for a quick unanimous consent to have Mr. Manirakiza's comments as documented rather than as read because he shortened his opening statement. Very good.

To both of our witnesses, on behalf of the entire committee, thank you very much for your expertise, and again to, Ms. Nivyabandi, for your great bravery.

[Ketty Nivyabandi]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We're adjourned, colleagues.