Evidence of meeting #34 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinese.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lobsang Sangay  Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the 34th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

In 2013 this subcommittee undertook a study on the important issue of self-immolations that have occurred in Tibet. This is a tragic series of circumstances that involves at least 145 fatalities since 2009. Based on this concern, in 2013 this subcommittee heard testimony from the Central Tibetan Administration and its political leader, Sikyong Dr. Lobsang Sangay, who testified before this subcommittee.

Dr. Sangay was first elected to his position in 2011 and was re-elected to another five-year term in March of this year. In 2004 he was the first Tibetan to earn a Doctor of Juridical Science degree from Harvard Law School. He is an expert in international human rights law and was a senior fellow at the East Asian legal studies program at Harvard Law School before being elected Sikyong.

Dr. Sangay has returned to our subcommittee today to discuss the ongoing human rights situation in Tibet.

Thank you for being here today. Please make your opening remarks, and then we'll move directly to questions from the other committee members.

Thank you very much.

1:05 p.m.

Dr. Lobsang Sangay Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

Thank you, Chairman Michael Levitt and members of the human rights subcommittee.

It's a great honour to be back at the subcommittee today. I'll speak about the current human rights situation in Tibet.

Historically, Tibet was an independent country. It's under occupation now and there is political repression, economic marginalization, social discrimination, cultural assimilation, and environmental destruction.

The size of Tibet is also important, because some people think it's a small place in the Himalayas, but it is as big as western Europe or, in an American context, California and Texas combined. It is 2.5 million square kilometres of land. It is also called the third pole because after Antarctica and the Arctic, it has the highest reserve of ice. The top 10 major rivers of Asia flow from the Tibetan Plateau: Indus, Sutlej, Bhahmaputra, Mekong, Salween, Yangtze, and Yellow River, among others. Hence, Tibet, as far as size is concerned, is big. Environmentally speaking it is vital, and from a civilization point of view, it's very old, ancient, and its culture is also very rich.

As the chairman just mentioned, when I came last time, there were self-immolations taking place and, the number of them has now reached 145. Among the self-immolators, there were young and old, teachers, students, monks, nuns, nomads, farmers, people from all walks of life and all parts of Tibet. That clearly shows the desperation and determination of the Tibetan people, and it is still going on. It also reflects that the repressive policies of the Chinese government are so severe that people resort to burning themselves. Of the 145, more than 120 have died.

I must make it very clear that of the 145 Tibetans who have committed self-immolation, none of them have harmed even a single Chinese person or property. Self-immolation is a violent way to die, but it's not violence because it has not caused any harm to any Chinese person or property.

Similarly, there is almost the same level of repression that there was in the cultural revolution era. As you know, after the occupation of Tibet in 1959, by 1962, the Communist Party of China and the Chinese government had destroyed 98% of monasteries and nunneries; 99.99% of monks and nuns were defrocked, sent to prison, tortured, or made to do forced labour, and many died.

Now, there is almost a revival of that situation, because, as we speak, the Larung Gar monastery and Yachen Gar are being destroyed, are being demolished. It is estimated that there are around 20,000 monks and nuns in that area. Voluntarily, Tibetans and Chinese have come to build their own shelters and shacks to be with their religious teachers.

In 2001, the Chinese government destroyed a major portion of the Larung Gar monastery and, as we speak, a second phase of destruction is going on because the Chinese government wants to reduce the number of monks and nuns from 30,000 to 6,000.

We fear that this is just the beginning of the destruction, because they will continue similar destruction to other monasteries and nunneries all over Tibet.

I think the Chinese government has a draft of a religious policy that is very repressive, that is very restrictive. If this Larung Gar monastery goes on, followed by destruction of other monasteries, I think then the very repressive religious policy will be introduced. That's our biggest fear.

I hope the current Government of Canada, which advocates human rights, religious freedom, and environmental protection, will take this situation into consideration and speak for the Tibetan people who are suffering in Tibet.

Also on the economic front of human rights, if you go to the capital city of Lhasa, I think 75% to 80% of shops, restaurants, and businesses are owned or run by Chinese, and at least 10 to15 years ago there were signboards outside, clearly inviting people to apply for jobs within. The salaries, if you were Chinese, were $50 a day, but if you were Tibetan, were $30 a day. Imagine in Ottawa if there were shops with a sign saying that if you are Chinese we'll give you $50 a day but if you're Canadian we will give you $30 a day. How would you feel?

Not only is there domination or control of the economy by Chinese in urban areas, and now increasingly in certain rural areas but also there is blatant discrimination, so economic marginalization in Tibetan areas is also real.

The Chinese government has come out with a grid system, which is very intrusive. For example, every nomad and farmer is issued an ID card with second-generation biometric chips in it. Having an ID card with biometric chips sounds kind of logical, but what it does is to monitor the movement of nomads and farmers. Each time you travel within Tibet, there are very many Chinese police checkpoints. You keep swiping your ID card and some days they'll track you down, and ask where you're from and where you have been, and that could land you in trouble as well.

Surveillance is taking place all over Tibet. I have seen photographs of kind of small remote villages, and they have a gate on top of which they have put cameras. The surveillance, the grid system, and the biometric ID chips are very intrusive and repressive for the Tibetan people.

On the economic front, in the Tibet Autonomous Region, which was historically known as central Tibet, they have “upgraded” the Tibetan towns or prefectures to a city level. From a developmental point of view, upgrading a town to a city looks like progress, but in towns there are certain regulations that protect the local residents and also provide some subsidies to local residents. When you upgrade to a city level, it opens it up for Chinese migrants to come in and dominate the economy and control the system.

From a developmental point of view, when you say you have upgraded Tibetan towns into cities, it looks like progress, but in actuality it helps Chinese migrants to come and control business and the economy. Hence, in that way also Tibetans are facing discrimination as far as the economy is concerned.

I would like to touch on Tibet being vital, as far as the environment is concerned, but there's also a human rights element to it. As we speak, in Deqin County in Yunnan province, there are Chinese, but in the Kham area, the nomads, mainly farmers, are also protesting against Chinese companies that have come to mine a sacred mountain in the area. A Chinese company wants to go and exploit the minerals that are there in the mountain. Farmers have come out and they're protesting, but now they're being beaten up; some are being arrested, and some are being put behind bars and labelled as splitists. This is a political act.

Actually, Tibetans are simply protecting a sacred mountain, which they worship, which they regard and respect very highly. That kind of exploitation is going on. Unfortunately, it's not only in Deqin County. The mineral extraction that is going on in the Tibetan areas is happening without due regard for the sustainability and protection of the local environment, without being culturally sensitive, and worse, without benefiting local Tibetans. The Chinese companies bring their own workers; they exploit it; and they take the minerals back to China without much benefit to the Tibetan people.

This is serious, because Tibet is the water tower of Asia. As I said, Tibet is the “third pole” according to some Chinese environmentalists as well, because after the Antarctic and the Arctic, Tibet has the third-highest reserve of ice. I think 14.5% of glaciers are in the Tibetan plateau. The difference is that in the Antarctic and the Arctic, when the ice melts, it goes to the ocean, but when the Tibetan glaciers melt, they form fresh water and turn into rivers; hence all the top major rivers of Asia flow from the Tibetan area.

That fresh water provides water to 1.4 billion people in Asia. According to Chinese environmentalists, 50% of the Tibetan glaciers have already melted. By 2100, 80% of the glaciers will disappear. If that happens and Tibet dries up, what will happen to the 1.4 billion people downstream who are basically surviving on Tibetan water, whether they're in agriculture, fisheries, or any kind of businesses depending on Tibetan fresh water? Tibet is thus vital from an environmental point of view as well.

Finally, I want to conclude by asking where the solution is. How can we move forward? I propose the middle way approach, which is to seek genuine autonomy for the Tibetan people. The middle way approach is the middle of two extremes, two views.

There is repression going on. We say that the Chinese government should end the repression of the Tibetan people and grant genuine autonomy, as per Chinese laws, and within China. If that happens, we will not seek separation from China or independence from China. This is a win-win proposition, and I think Canada can play an instrumental role because of its own experience towards minorities here in Canada.

The Canadian government stance towards first nations and Quebec is that the Canadian government is willing to address and solve these issues and to grant as much autonomy as possible and permitted within the Canadian constitution. Similarly, a middle way approach seeks genuine autonomy within the framework of the Chinese constitution. We say that if the Chinese government implemented its own laws, we could take that as genuine autonomy and we would not seek separation from China.

This is a win-win proposition for the Chinese government and the Tibetan people. This is my request to the Government of Canada. It could play a very important role, given the experience that Canada has, which it could share with the Chinese government.

To do that, we must have dialogue between the envoys of the Dalai Lama and Chinese representatives. From 2002 to 2010 we have had nine rounds of dialogue. The envoys of the Dalai Lama have talked to Chinese representatives nine times, but the last discussion was in January 2010. We have to continue the dialogue, and I hope the Government of Canada will play an instrumental role in reviving that dialogue.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I will end my short presentation.

Thank you.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

Thank you very much, Dr. Sangay.

We'll move straight into the first round of questioning, which will begin with my colleague, MP Sweet.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Sangay, tashi delek. It's good to see you. Congratulations on your re-election. I know it comes with a heavy burden, given that you are a government in exile that must now represent your people, who are spread all across the world.

On that note, my first question to you is whether the project for the resettlement of Tibetan refugees into Canada, which began a few years ago, is still ongoing here. Has the number reached the 1,000 that was the target?

1:15 p.m.

Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

Yes, the previous government, as per the request of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, was very generous in granting 1,000 immigrant visas to Tibetan people, particularly to those from the state of Arunachal Pradesh. So far, around 900 of them have come to Canada and settled quite successfully.

Yesterday I had a meeting with the group of Tibetans who have come to Ottawa. There used to be only about a dozen or so Tibetans here. Now the number has increased to 100. I think it has gone very well, because from the very beginning our request was that visas be granted to Tibetans, but the cost be borne by Tibetans ourselves and our friends.

Nine hundred of them have come, and most of them are working and within a year have become taxpaying residents of Canada and will soon be citizens of Canada. The influx has been implemented quite successfully, for which we are very grateful. There remain 100, and there are issues of two dozen who are also Tibetans, but these issues will, I think, be addressed eventually.

Thank you very much.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Dr. Sangay, you were mentioning the destruction of monasteries. I think it would be good, probably, for people who are listening in, as well as our committee, to know why the Chinese administration, the People's Republic of China, continues to do this. What is at the root of this kind of destruction, this kind of behaviour?

I think it's probably also linked to the root of why they kidnapped the Panchen Lama, and maybe you might want to say a few things about why the Panchen Lama is important to Tibetans as well.

1:20 p.m.

Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

I think the ultimate goal of the Chinese government is to convert Tibet into Chinatown and make Tibetans into Chinese. They see Buddhism and Tibetan culture as the foundation of Tibetan identity, and hence they physically destroyed 98% of the monasteries and nunneries in the 1960s, and 99% of monks and nuns were sent to prison.

They thought they could just physically change the foundation of Tibetan civilization, our culture and identity. That's their primary objective, but they have failed because spirituality has more to do with your heart and mind. The physical destruction in itself will not end the Tibetan identity. That's their main goal, hence the kidnapping or the disappearance of the Panchen Lama for almost 20 years now. It's a matter of grave concern. They want to destroy the foundation of Tibetan civilization and spirituality.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

If I heard your testimony correctly, it was way back in 2010 when the last dialogue happened. That was actually prior to His Holiness the Dalai Lama saying that the political affairs should be handled by a different office, and, of course, you were elected, and re-elected. Has there been any attempt by the People's Republic of China to engage your negotiators in dialogue since then? Have you made overtures? What has the result been?

1:20 p.m.

Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

Our stand is that we are willing to send envoys of the Dalai Lama to have dialogue with Chinese counterparts anytime, anywhere. From our side, our policy is middle way approach, and the peaceful way to solve the issue of Tibet is through dialogue. We are willing, but unfortunately the Chinese government has not indicated its willingness to receive our envoys as of yet.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

Thank you, MP Sweet.

We are now going to move to MP Tabbara with the next question.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony here today. I just want to say that my thoughts turn to the earthquake that happened quite a few months back in Tibet.

You've been talking in your testimony about dialogue. What's the dialogue like with some of the neighbouring countries like India, Bangladesh, and Nepal? What constructive feedback have they given?

1:20 p.m.

Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

We don't have a formal relationship with any of the neighbouring countries like Bangladesh and others, but we do have our office in Nepal because a large number of Tibetans, around 10,000 plus, live in Nepal.

Unfortunately, Nepal is under tremendous pressure from the Chinese government, and the conditions of Tibetans in Nepal is also very serious. For example, Tibetans who were born after the 1990s are not provided with a residence certificate. They were born in Nepal, but they don't get documents, so going to school and getting employment is very, very problematic.

Countries like Bangladesh and ASEAN countries all know the importance of the Tibetan Plateau as far as water towers are concerned, but given the domination, the overwhelming influence of the Chinese government, not many countries are able to say much on the issue of Tibet.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

In recent years, has there been any change in some of the political dialogue that's been going on? Has the situation changed recently for Tibet?

1:20 p.m.

Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

There is no formal dialogue. The envoys of the Dalai Lama, as I said, are ready to go and engage in dialogue with Chinese counterparts, but that has not happened. The political situation has not changed; in fact, it has become worse, actually, inside Tibet, as you saw and as I explained to you, with regard to the destruction of monasteries, human rights violations, and environmental destruction.

Regarding your first question about the neighbouring countries, India has done the most for the Tibetan people. The largest number of Tibetans are in India. The Central Tibetan Administration is based in India, and His Holiness the Dalai Lama is based in India, for which we are very grateful.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

What are some of the most effective ways that the Canadian government can engage with the Chinese government on the issues of Tibet?

1:25 p.m.

Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

As I said in my opening statement, one way would be to share the Canadian experience in dealing with the issue of Quebec and first nations.

I'm not saying that there are no issues from the perspective of Quebec and first nations—there are issues—but the fact is that the Canadian government is willing to grant as high an autonomy as possible within the Canadian Constitution. This is actually what we are proposing to the Chinese government. We are saying that if Tibetans are granted autonomy as per Chinese laws, we would take that. So Canada's experience is very helpful. Sharing that experience, hopefully, will convince the Chinese government that a peaceful solution through dialogue is the best way to resolve the issue. Aggression is not the way.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Thank you.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

We're now going to move to MP Garrison, please.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much.

I thank Cheryl Hardcastle for giving me the time that she would normally have today.

It's a great pleasure to have Dr. Lobsang Sangay here, as well as Mr. Penpa Tsering, the Dalai Lama's representative to North America, who is here from Washington, D.C.

I have the honour to be the sponsor of e-petition e-431 to the Government of Canada. It was begun by Tsewang Rinzin from Toronto, a Tibetan who was born in Nepal and who is now here studying in Canada. This petition calls on the Government of Canada to have a delegation of Canadian parliamentarians or diplomats visit the Panchen Lama to determine his whereabouts and his well-being. It also urges the Government of China to release the 11th Panchen Lama and his family immediately and without conditions. We are expecting a reply from the government on December 1.

I'd like to ask you about the importance of the Panchen Lama in terms of religious freedom and Tibetan identity.

1:25 p.m.

Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

The Panchen Lama is the second-best-known lama in the Tibetan Buddhist world. He also plays an important role in Tibetan history. His disappearance reflects a lack of religious freedom in Tibet. There was a committee formed by the Chinese government to select the Panchen Lama. It identified a couple of young boys, and then narrowed that down to one candidate who was endorsed by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Even though the selection was done by the committee formed by the Chinese government, because he was endorsed by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, he has disappeared. That shows that the Chinese lack of trust toward Tibetan lamas is so serious that they did not trust even the committee they had formed.

I think we are all very concerned. We all want to know where the Panchen Lama is and we want to know about his health, his way of living, and his education. It is very important that he, as a lama, receive spiritual teachers. The lack of any kind of spiritual teaching is not good for him as one of the very well-known lamas in the Tibetan Buddhist world. So, it's a major concern for us. If anyone can go and visit him, they will be welcomed, but so far it has been very difficult. The politicization of the reincarnation process for lamas, I think, is simply in clear violation of basic human rights.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Most of us are aware that it's been 21 years now since there's been any information on the whereabouts of the Panchen Lama.

1:25 p.m.

Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

We heard some discussion about the destruction of monasteries. Again, I'd like to go back and connect that very directly to religious freedom and the Tibetan cultural identity. I think you have been very clear on the government's reasons for its opposition to the monasteries. Can you turn that around and talk a bit more from the Tibetan side about the importance of the monasteries in Tibet?

1:30 p.m.

Sikyong, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

Monasteries are very important from the point of view of civilization. One very well-known Buddhist scholar said that before Tibet was occupied, there were three million books or texts in Tibet, when Tibet had a population of only six million. For every two Tibetans, there was one book, mostly Buddhist books.

Tibet, in that sense, is considered the most literate or well-read nation. Most of the books were burnt or destroyed, and 75% of the statues and artifacts in monasteries were looted or burned or have disappeared.

As I said, the purpose of all this is to destroy the very foundation of Tibetan civilization. For us, Buddhism is the life and soul of the Tibetan people. I think it is under threat, which is simply unacceptable from a human rights point of view.