Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to pick up on that last point, in fact. You mentioned conflicts arising, and the causes of conflict—we don't have to say here; we all know them—are multi-faceted and complex, but gaps in terms of socio-economic equality and lack of access to basic needs factor into it in a major way.

I wonder if you could tell us about corporate social responsibility activities that mining firms are involved in, construction of schools, roads, and the like, that are helping to improve lives for inhabitants. In fact, do you have numbers on the percentage of Canadian mining firms that are engaged in this sort of work?

[Pierre Gratton]

I guess I would speak about two issues. One, the construction of schools, hospitals, and so on is arguably not where companies should be, because those are services that ought to be provided by—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt. You understand, though, that time is limited. I'm thinking of situations where a mining company is operating in a particular area and wishes to, either on the basis of good will, good business, or whatever it might be.... The motivation does not matter as much to me as the outcome. What contributions are being made? I think there have been contributions made. I'm not coming at it from that perspective. I want you to speak to that.

[Pierre Gratton]

No, I understand that.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It's about making the lives of those inhabitants better.

[Pierre Gratton]

No, I understand that. There are two answers to that question that I would focus on.

First of all, the contribution is one aspect, but it's how you operate, which is another. That's at the core of our towards sustainable mining initiative, where we have put in place standards of good practice across a range of issues that matter at the local level, including how you involve local stakeholders in your projects, including how you protect biodiversity, including how you ensure your tailings facilities are managed safely, and including how you protect your workers. Ensuring that you operate to those high standards is, to me, the first demonstration of social responsibility.

Also in the power point presentation we shared with you, you'll find just one example where we look at how benefits are distributed from mining investments. You'll have a snapshot. If you look at slide 5, for example, this is just one illustration from one of our members, Kinross Gold, their property in Mauritania. You can look at the difference over two years in terms of per capita income, populations in poverty, and perceptions of poverty—which is also an important value—for the communities in the affected area around the mine versus communities further away. You can see the dramatic improvement in income standards and poverty alleviation that result from mining.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I appreciate that, Mr. Gratton, but I asked a question about percentages, the percentage of Canadian mining firms that are engaged in concrete CSR activities. I mentioned assisting in road construction, helping to build schools. As you can understand, and you know probably better than most since you're operating in this sector, the states in Latin America, whether it's Guatemala or Honduras or any number of examples, are weak states and can't often carry out these sorts of activities. You're operating in those areas. One could argue that there's a responsibility to give back. Can you give me the percentage of Canadian mining firms engaged in that kind of work?

[Pierre Gratton]

Do you want to take that?

[Ben Chalmers]

I would say that we represent a small segment of the industry that's operating abroad, and we don't have a lot of detailed contact with those who aren't our members. I can tell you that every one of our members that's operating abroad is doing something firm and concrete with communities. I could give you a list of examples if you want—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

If you could table that with the committee, that would be helpful.

[Ben Chalmers]

—right now. Is it off the record or, sorry—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

No, it's definitely on the record. Just send it in afterwards.

[Ben Chalmers]

Absolutely, I can compile a number of examples.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

My last question is, if I understand things correctly here as far as the CSR—

Go ahead.

[Andrew Cheatle]

Sorry for the interruption, but it's a fabulous question and I could actually answer both from a personal experience and otherwise.

I do sit at mining investment conferences where there are quite literally dozens and sometimes hundreds of companies presenting, and we also do go through the websites of our members and just general industry, and I can tell you that you'd be very hard pressed to find one company that is not doing something. Everybody recognizes that they have to do something.

These things are often very scale-specific. One would have to appreciate that a small company of a market capitalization of, say, $10 million or $20 million, is going to have a very different program, for example, from that of a multinational like Goldcorp or Barrick. Let me just talk about what a small company can do. I would also point you to the UNDP atlas that maps mining to the SDGs. In there, actually the company that I was CEO of is recorded and recognized. We can do simple things. I'll give you a couple of examples.

We were working in an area and it became apparent to us that one of the rural schools in the community didn't have running water from the central well into the school. It actually happened that one of our geologists had those skills. On a Sunday afternoon, she simply came and asked if she could have 500 feet of plastic tubing because this is what she used to do during her youth. Alternatively, we had been importing plastic core trays to store the core that we drilled during the exploration. We were importing the trays from Canada, through Miami, and all through the port systems. Yet in the area there were forestry plantations, wood mills, and we were able to transfer that set of skills and requirements to the local forestry people and carpenters to make core trays for us—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Those are great examples. I don't mean to interrupt you here, but I'm guessing there are probably only about 30 seconds left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

There's actually no time left, so I'm going to interrupt you.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, as I think that speaks to the points.

Perhaps in further answers you may wish to expand upon that and show us how it's not a one-off type of thing. I think there's sometimes criticism brought back that there may be just a few companies doing this, but if it's wide-ranging, then our committee should know that.

[Andrew Cheatle]

It is wide-ranging.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fragiskatos.

We will now move to MP Hardcastle.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I've been involved in international human rights for a long time and I'm very aware of the role that Canadian mining companies have played in the development in Latin America in preparation for these sessions. First of all, I know all of you have worked with various NDP members over previous Parliaments, and some of them have massive mining projects in their ridings, so I'd just like to know quickly, do any of you characterize the NDP as anti-mining?

[Pierre Gratton]

No, I wouldn't say that the NDP.... I think certain MPs in all parties may have issues with mining, but I think most MPs support mining.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much for that answer.

Now, on the presentations, I was very intrigued to hear both of you, Mr. Gratton and Mr. Cheatle, in your own way express that what you're recommending and what is needed is enforceability. We need something that is enforceable. Even with a joint fact finding task force, how would we compel all of these mining companies to buy into something like this?

I believe Mr. Chalmers has had this experience within the Mining Association. Within the membership, you have those vanguard and champion members for different reasons. You have a junior mining company that's just starting up; their capital, human resources, and ability to connect with a local government, for a variety of different reasons, are vast and varied. Before we get into some of the other aspects and recommendations, I would like to hear what you're envisioning moving forward.

Is there a role for us to find words beyond it being voluntary—beyond these being voluntary mechanisms—so we have a fact finding mechanism for an ombudsman that compels the participation of all parties? In other words, should there be a means of ensuring that people are partaking in this? That's a question I'd like to hear you candidly discuss.

[Pierre Gratton]

The original round tables which I personally participated in recommended consequences for companies—well, actually, for all parties—if they were seen to be acting in bad faith. When the 2009 strategy first came about, it had no such mechanisms. As a consequence, the strategy was dead on arrival and was severely criticized.

Then in 2014, with a lot of our advocacy, our members also came to share the view that it didn't have any teeth and that there should be consequences. Collectively, our members said that if they were one of the companies involved in this, they would want to see it through, and if there's a company that would not, then, frankly, they should pay a price for that. Consequences make sense, and that's what we now have. The consequences that have been put in place are the ones that were recommended by the round tables, namely, withdrawal of trade commissioner support and access to EDC financing.

I wouldn't diminish the significance of that. Trade commissioner support is extremely valued by our industry and many other industries. Canada's trade commissioner service is extremely helpful to industries around the world. To lose that, and not only to lose it but to—because this is also part of the process and maybe this is some aspect that could be strengthened—have it made public that a company that refused to participate is no longer able to access that support, I think, sends a pretty strong message.

That is where it currently sits and probably where we want to keep it. We've made recommendations now for the past number of years that the whole transparency of the process can be enhanced and more resources made available to make sure we're better able to deal with complaints that come up, but there should be consequences if you refuse to engage.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much.

You are all probably familiar with the international Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women, which had a specific recommendation in November 2016 for the introduction of “effective mechanisms to investigate complaints filed against those corporations, including by establishing an extractive sector ombudsperson with the mandate to, among other things, receive complaints and conduct independent investigations.”

Do you think that maybe this recommendation is going a little further than what you have just described, Mr. Gratton?