Evidence of meeting #84 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was somalia.
A video is available from Parliament.
Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I want to thank our guests for some very thought-provoking information. I'd like to start off with Ms. Bader.
I'd like to hear you continue a bit more on the issue of rehabilitating our child soldiers. You mentioned to my colleague that you have a report coming out. Do we have some concrete recommendations that we should be focusing on as we go through this study?
My other question would be of a general nature and to the both of you.
We heard from previous witnesses that part of the issue with impunity, besides a structure through which we need access to justice—so maybe you can talk about how we can contribute to that.
Apparently one of the low-hanging fruits, if you will, would be if we were to address dual citizenship. There are people who hold citizenship in various countries as well as in Somalia, and there may be an opportunity there.
That's all I'm going to ask, and the two of you can share the time as long as our chairperson allows.
I appreciate this. Thanks.
Senior Researcher, Human Rights Watch
I'll go first on the first question.
One of the problems at the moment is both, I would say, a kind of concerted lack of political will to treat all children equally in this context, but also that some very concrete recommendations involve, as I mentioned before, oversight over intelligence detention facilities. There's obviously a lot of international support going to the intelligence agency, both in Mogadishu and in Puntland.
Making sure that there is oversight over the screening process and over interrogations is essential, and calling for basic due process. When children are picked up in mass sweeps—in Mogadishu, the majority of children are actually not picked up off the battlefield, but are picked up in very regular mass sweeps in the town—their parents don't find out often for weeks where they are. Oversight, due process within the intelligence system, then, are needed. One very concrete call is to make sure that no cases of children are heard before military courts.
Concerning the cases Fowsia was mentioning about Puntland last year, the Puntland courts basically tried, in the end, about 40-plus children in military court trials that left much to be desired. Those children have been handed over to rehabilitation, but actually the court sentences have not been overturned.
I think, therefore, that another whole area of recommendations is that the international community support DDR programming. They're supporting to a certain extent some activities around former combatants, but there are really grey zones around what these former combatants programmings are legally. Are these alternatives to prison sentences? Does a child, once they turn 18, have to go back to prison to serve out...? There are massive grey zones, which lead to real risks of prolonged detention of children.
I'll let Fowsia respond more on the whole question of access to justice, maybe coming to the initial point Fowsia was making about the need to start thinking about transitional justice. I think now is the right time. As we speak, the Security Council Somalia-Eritrea monitoring report that came out today has been discussed at the Security Council. One of their recommendations, which is one we've supported for years, is for there to be a mapping report on Somalia that would look at the gravest abuses over time, and that the team of experts who would work on this mapping report basically come up with some very concrete recommendations.
I think this is something that would be useful for Canada to support. I think it would be useful for them to call on the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, as they have done in Congo and are also doing in Sierra at the moment. I think it's now time for Somalia to have some sort of record that can then feed into transitional justice, can feed into vetting of worst abuses, whether on the civilian side or the military side.
Thank you.
Independent Researcher, As an Individual
With regard to the child soldier situation and rehabilitation, when I was there, the African Union Mission commissioned research, and I'll try and dig that up for you. They spoke to the kids who came back and tried to come up with some recommendations and communication strategies. They spoke to the kids who were there at the Baidoa centre. I'll try to communicate that back to the clerk.
In terms of immunity, I think transitional justice and reconciliation are really where efforts need to put. As a Canadian Somalian, I think there is a role that Canada can play in that sense, starting with that mapping research that was just mentioned.
Also, in terms of people who have dual citizenship there and might be implicated in some of the atrocities themselves, I know that people are talking about how to engage. The centre for justice in the U.S. has been approached by a couple of people I know from the U.K. and whatnot, who are trying to say that these leaders who are there now could be implicated in what is happening. Is there a recourse whereby we can maybe hold them accountable through their dual citizenship? It's a slippery slope, but I think there needs to be some international pressure on some of these leaders, because as things go bad, they can just leave with their European and North American passports, but they might have taken part in some human rights abuses.
I think peace-building, conflict resolution, and transitional justice is where it's at now, because 20-some years of trying to do military intervention hasn't really led to any stable governance structures. Maybe this is the time to create those dialogues.
Somalia's constitution calls for a human rights commission, a truth and reconciliation commission. Since 2012, the government was supposed to have established that commission in its first 100 days. They have not moved on it. They're still trying to debate the draft constitution. There is a role that Canada can play in providing support for those processes.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt
Thank you very much. That was literally seven minutes. I want to thank both of our witnesses for your testimony before us today.
Iqra is next.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you. I appreciate your testimony.
I had a bit of a preamble with respect to Somalis now leaving Kenya and coming back to Somalia, and the human rights atrocities, the clan wars, the dual citizenship, the lack of governance in that region, but I also wanted to mention the high level of the economy and the development of trade in the region. My question to both of you, if you can please answer briefly, is this: What concrete role can Canada play in helping the situation and forcing Somalia to come up and get out of the situation that it's in now?
Independent Researcher, As an Individual
I think there is a role for sure. The refugees who are returning are coming back to basically nothing. There could be a small city or two in the south where they could be brought. I don't know what the longer-term plan is, but I know the UNHCR has an envoy for Somalia, and they're talking to donors to try to create communities for these people to settle in. There is a role for Canada if that can be mapped out.
There is a whole UNHCR-Kenya-Somalia agreement that can be looked at. I know that the Canadian ambassador in Nairobi is also keen on finding out more. I would say that between the Canadian Somalia diaspora and this committee and members of Parliament, we can look into that further and come up with some niches that Canada can support for sure.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt
Thank you very much.
I am going to again thank the witnesses for their testimony here this afternoon. We had back-to-back days focusing on this issue and heard a lot of very important testimony that I think has been greatly enlightening to the members of this committee.
With that, I want to ask members if we have approval to put out the press release.
