Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 30th, 2017

[Jo Becker]

The mining example is very pertinent, and what we found is that in the industrial sector—which, of course, is what most Canadian mining is—we don't find problems with child labour or forced labour. Where we find child labour in mining is in the artisanal and small-scale sector.

It's a small portion. For example, for gold, it provides 15% to 20% of the world's gold, but that sector employs 40 million people around the world. It provides significant income for many people.

What we found in Ghana, for example, is that many of the artisanal mines are not regulated by the government. One of the recommendations we've made to the Ghanaian government is exactly what you've said: that the government should professionalize this sector, but make the provision of licences to miners contingent on meeting certain human rights standards, including no use of child or forced labour.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

The idea is, then, that this is a way of trying to police companies that have no presence here in Canada. The rules I was describing are Canadian rules designed and implemented at the level of the Toronto Stock Exchange and other public exchanges. You're talking about doing the same thing as part of domestic Ghanaian policy, and we should be trying to influence the Ghanaians to adopt that model. Would that summarize things accurately?

[Jo Becker]

It was just an example. My example is meant to say that greater government oversight and regulation in general is good. There are jewellery companies in Canada that may be importing gold from countries such as Ghana, so they want some assurance that their gold is responsibly sourced.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Right.

Some things are easy to keep track of and some are harder to keep track of. We have some mechanisms that have been developed with regard to diamonds, for example, to ensure they are not conflict diamonds. One of the most obvious is that Canadian diamonds are incised with a laser so we know where they come from. My wife insisted when I proposed to her that I do so with a Canadian diamond.

Gold and any mineral of that sort that is fungible, in a sense, strike me as being very hard to trace, while things like textiles are some kind of intermediate case.

Are there any thoughts on how one can actually keep track of the hard to trace stuff and therefore eliminate the child labour practices we're trying to deal with?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Very briefly, please.

[Jo Becker]

One good example of traceability is a Swiss jewellery company that invested for three years with several artisanal mines in Latin America, helping them improve their standards, reach fair trade certification, and then source from those mines. They know exactly where their gold is coming from, they know exactly what kinds of conditions it's produced under, and they have really invested in supporting those mining communities. That's a very good example of what a company can do.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Fragiskatos, did you have any questions?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I do, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much.

Thank you to the witnesses for your testimony.

My question relates to scope. This has come up in passing today, but I think it's quite critical that we examine it in greater detail.

Existing legislation that we see internationally in the United Kingdom, in Australia, in California, focuses on modern slavery. The Dutch case is different. It focuses on child labour.

When we're assessing this issue, I will tell you my perspective, which is still very much open. I would love to hear the perspective of Dr. McQuade and Ms. Becker on this.

To my way of thinking, isn't it more logical, and wouldn't it be more effective, to craft legislation so that modern slavery is indeed the focus, rather than child labour? I say that because child labour can be interpreted very widely, whereas with modern slavery we're dealing with specific cases of forced labour and human trafficking.

You might come back and say that child labour is codified very well in international law and we have an idea of what it means, but when it comes to business analysis of any potential legislation and the public's understanding of legislation, child labour is very general. The average Canadian citizen might, indeed correctly, ask what child labour means here. Does it mean a young boy or girl helping out on a local rice plantation, or a family that's involved in mining in some way because it's necessary for the family's survival?

When we're talking about modern slavery, again, that's very focused. We're talking about cases of clear forced labour activities, human trafficking activities, things that are clearly going against people's will, and that's why I say I think modern slavery is perhaps better suited to being the focus of progressive legislation in this regard.

However, as I said at the outset, I have an open mind, so I would love to hear from you both.

Go ahead, Ms. Becker, and then we can hear from Dr. McQuade.

[Jo Becker]

Briefly, child labour is usually understood to mean work that is either hazardous for children under the age of 18 or work that's done by children who are too young, generally under the age of 15.

You make a good point, and I think there's a broad consensus around forced labour. On the other hand, I would say that the voluntary standards we have internationally, especially the UN guiding principles for business in human rights, cover human rights generally. If you're going to ask companies to implement a due diligence policy, it seems to me that it's fairly easy to ask them to apply the steps of due diligence—identifying, preventing, mitigating—across a range of human rights abuses rather than solely limiting it to forced labour.

I'm curious about what Aidan has to say.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Dr. McQuade, you have about 45 seconds.

[Dr. Aidan McQuade]

If we're talking about due diligence in relation to businesses, then I would agree with Jo that it's as easy to do due diligence on child labour as on forced labour. I'm quite aware of Milton Friedman's full quote, and my point is that in many parts of the world—not Canada—child labour and forced labour are essentially legal because they're called something else or because the law is simply not enforced.

One of the questions that I think is worthwhile for you to ponder as legislators is what impact an extra-territorial law such as this one, which looks at due diligence on Canadian business supply chains, might have upon the law and policy of countries where child labour and forced labour occur. I think this is where the idea of precluding goods tainted with child and forced labour from Canadian markets becomes important, because so many of these countries have built their competitive advantage on low labour costs, including exploitation.

The more fundamental way to address child labour must be through community development, empowering families and kids in the ways that we've discussed already. It's important, in parallel with the law, to think about what development policy is doing. Canada is also an enormously important aid donor—I don't have to tell you this—so how aid policy in relation to development and humanitarian work is being shaped in order to address these issues is a question that needs to be asked as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

That's all the time we have for that round.

Colleagues, if there's anybody who has a burning question, we have about two minutes left. If not, we'll adjourn.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Could I go back and ask about pushing things down the supply chain?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Right at the beginning, I asked about the danger that things simply get pushed further and further down the supply chain, and there's always going to be a level of opacity. I think that maybe we got a partial answer to that when Ms. Becker talked about getting a kind of fair trade certification.

Is having some version of fair trade certification the way to resolve the problem that you can always go down one more step to one more middleman and can no longer tell whether or not forced labour was being used?

[Jo Becker]

It's an excellent question. I think companies are increasingly accepting the fact that they have responsibility throughout their supply chain and not just for their direct operations or their direct suppliers. Some companies are looking to cut out some of the middlemen and looking for ways to directly source their materials without going through many steps. That's one thing.

In the garment sector, there's increasingly a move to push companies to publish all of their suppliers so that external stakeholders can trace the route of the garments—whether they're coming from Bangladesh or Cambodia, for example—so that they know which factories are producing them and can independently look at that aspect.

I would say that there are a number of ways to address these long and complex supply chains.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Becker and Dr. McQuade, we don't have time for closing remarks, but if there's anything that you feel you want to make sure we understand before we get to writing a report on this issue, please don't hesitate to email it to our clerk. They'll make sure that's added to the evidence.

I want to thank our witnesses very much for their time.

[Dr. Aidan McQuade]

May I add just 10 seconds to Jo's answer?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Yes, you may.

[Dr. Aidan McQuade]

The critical way, I think, and the only sustainable way, really, to ensure that supply chains are transparent is through freedom of association in the supply chains. A major garment company has recently stated that the only ethical way to ensure ethical business is to ensure that you have freedom of association all the way through your supply chain. That would mean establishing monitoring systems of the workers themselves and of the supply chains. Increasingly, global framework agreements between multinationals and trade unions are recognizing that and using it as a model.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, the meeting is adjourned.