Evidence of meeting #97 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was civilians.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I just want to ask a question, then, about the future, because it seems to me that, if the UN resolution isn't taken seriously and enforced, the international community is basically turning its back on pushing back the Syrian government.
I would like to hear some comments on that, because it has been a long battle going on here. My concern is that we see international resolve weakening, and that's going to lead to the kind of situation we had prior to this ever beginning.
I'd like all three of you to comment on that.
Board Member, Union of Medical Relief Organizations-Canada (UOSSM)
Go ahead, Muzna.
Co-founder and board member, Canada, Urnammu for Justice and Human Rights
If the resolution is totally implemented, we will see a situation that is stable, but if there are no guarantees for civilians.... The civilians there don't want to exit from eastern Ghouta. Our demand is not to exit from Ghouta, because there are no areas, no safe way, and also we don't know what the future will be for civilians if they leave. We learned the lesson after Aleppo. It would be the same situation if they exit from eastern Ghouta. Dying from the bombing is the same thing as dying in Damascus under regime control, or in the prisons there.
My cousin tried to exit from eastern Ghouta on December 18, and with the regime, he is now in Saydnaya prison. There are no guarantees for civilians to exit, so the solution is to keep the civilians there and protect them from the bombing with pressure on the Russian Federation, Iran, and the Assad regime.
Board Member, Union of Medical Relief Organizations-Canada (UOSSM)
I'll just elaborate on Muzna's point.
The people feel like they're trapped over there. But there's definitely consensus among people, especially in communicating back and forth with them, that they don't want to leave the area. They don't want to go into exile because they've seen what happened to the refugees in Aleppo. They've seen how humiliating and difficult a process it is to go through. Some of the people would say that this is their home, and they will either die or live in their home. This is their feeling there. We're trying to convey that message to everyone. They don't want to be exiled.
The only way to gain some trust between the two sides is to stop shelling and bombing the area and open access for humanitarian aid to go in. Maybe that will start a dialogue between the two parties to find a peaceful resolution.
This is the only way it could happen, if the international community really puts pressure on Russia. The whole situation is under the Russian regime's control basically at this point.
Conservative
Board Member, Union of Medical Relief Organizations-Canada (UOSSM)
I just want to add one more point if you allow me.
The situation in eastern Ghouta is different from that in Aleppo. Aleppo has access to different cities and towns not controlled by the Syrian regime. Eastern Ghouta is completely surrounded by the Syrian regime. That's the major concern of the population, the 400,000 civilians, because they don't want to go there. If they get out of Ghouta, they would have to go to the regime areas, where there are more than 500,000 estimated to be in prisons and tortured.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt
Thank you very much.
I'm now going to pass the floor to Ms. Khalid.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to Hussam and Muzna for their testimony today.
If I may, I would ask Dr. Al-Kassem and Dr. Al Fakir a question. What is the role that you and your organization are playing on the ground? What kind of relief are you providing on the ground? Do you have any regional allies to provide supports for the work that you're doing?
Board Member, Union of Medical Relief Organizations-Canada (UOSSM)
We do have the primary health clinics and a hospital, which is the only hospital in the city of Douma currently. The only hospital is being operated by our organization or supported by our organization. We support the medical staff on the ground. We support the only emergency room in that hospital in that city, and the intensive care unit, which is currently packed with hundreds and hundreds of patients. We do have ambulances, which have been targeted as well in eastern Ghouta.
In terms of allies, we do have many organizations that we're working with, including Doctors Without Borders and the Syrian American Medical Society. We communicate with each other, and we send them some supplies if they don't have enough supplies in their own towns. We're working closely with the NGOs, with the medical relief organizations on the ground. We have British and French organizations supporting our efforts, as well as the French government and the Swiss government.
Unfortunately, we don't have any talks directly with the regime because they won't allow us to have any access to their hospitals or to their clinics.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
When it comes to the role of the Government of Canada, do you have any concrete recommendations that you can provide? Are there things that you think the Government of Canada can do in terms of helping the situation and applying political pressure to the international community, as you mentioned earlier?
Board Member, Union of Medical Relief Organizations-Canada (UOSSM)
In terms of what Canada can do, we urge Canada to put pressure on Russia, because we know that Russia has the solution. As my colleague Muzna mentioned, when Russia wanted to do the safe zone from nine o'clock until two o'clock, they were able to achieve that. I think Russia has the answer to that. If we put some more pressure on Russia, I think they can implement Resolution 2401 as it is, in addition to the previous resolutions, including Resolution 2286 to protect the hospitals and the medical facilities.
Once this is achieved, we can come with a solid and concrete proposal to the Canadian government. We do have a plan of evacuation. UOSSM was actually the pioneer organization in the evacuation of Aleppo. We have lots of experience from Aleppo. We can certainly help the UN with the evacuation. We work closely with the WHO and the UN. We'd be more than happy to present something solid at that time.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
You mentioned earlier in your testimony that people generally do not want to leave the area.
Do you think an evacuation, if possible, would pose a lot of challenges for you? Where would you evacuate people to?
Board Member, Union of Medical Relief Organizations-Canada (UOSSM)
I think my colleague Anas was just talking about evacuating injured people, not everyone on the ground, but many injured people.
I don't think it would be safe to take injured people to Damascus, because we don't have facilities there or the trust to be able to treat those people. We can evacuate those injured people to the north, close to the Turkish border.
Liberal
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you all very much for your advocacy.
Eastern Ghouta is so close to Damascus, and Damascus has been known throughout history as a really vibrant centre of culture and multiculturalism. It was such a diverse place. Can you comment on how the recent crisis has impacted minorities in eastern Ghouta, whether Kurds, Christians, Druze, Ismailis, or Shia? Any insight you could offer in that regard would be fruitful, I think.
Board Member, Union of Medical Relief Organizations-Canada (UOSSM)
I can tell you that, in general, it's not only in eastern Ghouta, because this issue is all over Syria. It's not only the suburbs of Damascus but the suburbs of other cities.
One thing I think the world needs to know about this area is that those people were living together long before the Syrian regime took control over the country. Those people are neighbours. They're sometimes families. They have farms together, and they have a lot of business together. There is really no division among ethnic cultures. They live together, and they've always been integrated together.
The Syrian regime has really tried to create a wedge between ethnic groups or religious beliefs so it can leverage some other minorities to join it. There is really no difference between them. I lived in Damascus for years. I have friends from all aspects of Syria, whether Christians, Ismaili, Druze, or Alawite. We went to class together and we partied together. We were old friends. This does not exist. I think it's just the Syrian regime really pushing on this point to gain leverage against the majority Sunni people.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Can I get further clarification on that? Of course, there is a great deal of historic harmony among the various ethnic and religious groups in Syria, including the Damascus area, and you referenced Ghouta.
I wonder whether the point you're making is that, despite the recent crisis and everything that has transpired in Syria since March 2011, the relationship of harmony and those positive relationships still exist. As we've seen throughout history, not just in the Middle East but in many other conflicts and emergency situations in particular, when bloodshed is ongoing, it's in those moments that relations between people who were once neighbours and friends can turn quite ugly. Are you hopeful that, despite everything that is going on, things seem to be on a steady footing?
Board Member, Union of Medical Relief Organizations-Canada (UOSSM)
Yes, I am very hopeful.
There is a difference here between the people who have been involved in the fighting and the people who have not. There are a lot of civilians on both sides who have not been involved in the fighting. They are still neighbours. When the war is over, I think they will get back together as friends and neighbours.
There are people who were involved in killing, and I believe in justice. There should be a court that takes over and accounts for this regardless of ethnicity or background. There should be a court that passes judgment on those people who were involved in killing and whatnot. However, I don't think it should be based on ethnicity.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt
You are out of time. We'll come back to you in the next round. I just want to make sure that we have time.
Ms. Hardcastle, please go ahead.
Co-founder and board member, Canada, Urnammu for Justice and Human Rights
I want to talk about my personal family.
We have an Alawite member in my family, and also a Kurdish member. In Ghouta, there are Kurdish people, and there are minorities. The problem in Syria is not about which group you belong to. It's just a matter of political opinion, when you are against the Assad regime. All the members of my family are under siege, so there is no difference between them. There are also Sunni members of my family with the Assad regime in Damascus, under the regime's control. It's about political opinion. It's not about religion or ethnicity.
