Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay. I don't have much time and I have a feeling that I won't be getting an answer to my question.

The ombudsperson's mandate is to “provide advice on any matter relating to [your] mandate, including issues related to the responsible business conduct of Canadian companies operating abroad.”

Is that right?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Yes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

Have you ever needed Ms. Meyerhoffer's advice?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

She has begun her work over the last 18 months. Most of it is to work with stakeholders, over 200 of them. I of course met with Ms. Meyerhoffer in the establishment of her office, and I am very confident that she will freely provide advice to me and bring any issues to my attention.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Has she spoken to you about the complaints portal? How is it working right now?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

The complaints portal has been set up and is now operational. Complainants, wherever they are in the world, are able to access her through her online portal. I know she is continuing to ensure that she is as available and as accessible as possible. She is working with partners and stakeholders in different parts of the world to make sure that she—in her role as the CORE—is available to anyone who wishes to or needs to get in touch with her and to make a complaint.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Do you speak to Ms. Meyerhoffer on a regular basis or have you not yet had time to have a real discussion with her?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Yes, I met with Ms. Meyerhoffer very shortly after I was appointed to this file. In fact, when I joined the Prime Minister on a business mission to Africa at the beginning of 2020, Ms. Meyerhoffer was also present. I have had the opportunity to meet with Ms. Meyerhoffer, with respect to her budget, for example, to make sure she is well-resourced, and also in the setting up of her operation. Of course, my door is always open and she knows that. I have every confidence in her for the work she will undertake for Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, that's your time.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Minister Ng.

I look forward to the next five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Now we're going to move over to Ms. McPherson from the NDP for seven minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the minister for joining us today to answer our questions. I'm delighted that she has joined us.

You may know, Minister, that I've worked in the sector of international development for a large part of my career, so this work is very important to me. I've seen on the ground what Canadian mining companies have done in countries around the world and it's quite devastating.

I was so looking forward to having the CORE ombudsperson, that was promised to us, who would have the ability to compel testimony. You can understand my disappointment with the current regulations, or the current ability that our CORE ombudsperson has.

I'd like to start with the following question. A report came out that was shared with the media after being hidden from public view for over a year and a half. The report commissioned by the Honourable James Carr made it very clear that it was vital the ombudsperson have the powers to compel witness and documents. Why did your government decide not to follow the recommendations of your own commissioned report, Minister?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Hi there. It's really wonderful to be here and to see you as well.

I think I said this in my opening. It's really important for the government to ensure that there are the right tools available for us to ensure that businesses are not only conducting themselves responsibly, but that they also are being held to account.

As I also said, when I was appointed to this position, the office was in the process of becoming operational. I reviewed the order in council for which this position and function were created, and I do believe she has the tools and instruments needed to be an effective mechanism for human rights abroad. Ms. Meyerhoffer herself has indicated that.

Right now, we're very focused on ensuring she is able to get to this work. As with any new program, we will look at its effectiveness. As the trade minister...we're spending quite a bit of energy to ensure our businesses—increasingly, even more businesses—are operating abroad, particularly small and medium-sized businesses—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Sorry to interrupt, Minister, I just have such little time. You know how this goes.

My question is this. If the right tool to hold business to account, according to your own report, is the ability to compel testimony and witness, how can that not be the right tool for you to give the ombudsperson?

I just want to follow up on that a little bit. If the Canadian companies, good Canadian companies, are doing good work abroad, compelling testimony and witness wouldn't impact them. It would impact companies that are not doing a good job, so why on earth would you not listen to the report you commissioned? What would be the harm in actually holding Canadian companies to a higher standard?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Certainly, in establishing the CORE, a range of options was considered. The order in council is the decision that was made by the government to provide effective tools and resourcing to the CORE. With the way in which this non-judicial mechanism was set up, we believe also, potentially, it leads to a longer lasting improvement in a company's behaviour because of the nature in which the ombudsperson can work with the company, the complainant and the local community in achieving the change and in achieving responsible business conduct.

The way it was set up also provides greater accessibility for complainants to come forward to access the CORE and enable the CORE to do that important investigative work.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Minister, you have not put anything in place that will actually hold companies that don't want to act appropriately to account. Do you feel Canada's reputation will suffer? We do know there are companies abroad that are flying the Canadian flag that are perpetrating atrocities on populations around the world. Could you speak to the fact that Canada's reputation will be impacted, and this conceivably impacts our ability to be on the Security Council, and impacts our trade negotiations, because we have not played a good global character on the world stage? Can you talk about the impacts you could see on that?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I would say that our impact on the global stage has to do with our commitment to a feminist international policy. I would say our impact is on negotiating and carrying through with inclusive trade practices that have at their core inclusivity for women, for small and medium-sized businesses, a respect for climate change—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

But our companies are actually attacking women and girls around the world. Our foreign policy is butting up against the mining interests of Canadian corporations that we are not holding to account. How do we say we have a FIAP on one hand and we're perpetrating human rights abuses on the other?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

We're taking a very serious approach around human rights. We have high standards for human rights, and I expect Canadian companies that operate globally to operate with that respect for human rights, operate with integrity and operate with ethical standards. I expect companies that go into communities to work in a manner where they are respecting and providing fairness for their workers and for the communities they operate in, so they really are leaving positive and lasting benefits to those communities. I've certainly talked—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

With respect, though, Minister, your expectations are not being met.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, member.

We're now moving to our second round. These will be five-minute segments.

We're going to start with the Honourable John McKay, from the Liberals, for five minutes.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I don't know who's more surprised by this happy accident, you or me. Nevertheless, we are where we are.

As you well know, you and I have exchanged correspondence and had quite a number of conversations about this issue. To put it delicately, we don't agree. When I started this process many decades ago it seems now, a friend of mine said something that I thought was quite profound. It was that these guys don't play to lose. That's proved true over the last number of years.

Notwithstanding the significant improvements in human rights and corporate social responsibility, particularly in the mining sector, we are still playing with some pretty bad actors, as Madam McPherson said.

The issue is quite clear to me. The issue is the power to compel documents, witnesses and other key testimony. Clearly you've made the decision that you do not think this is a necessary power for the ombudsperson. Both you and I agree, by the way, that Sheri Meyerhoffer is an excellent choice. There's no issue about that.

Let me give you a clear example. I believe Ms. Meyerhoffer is not empowered to compel anything. Currently before Canadian courts is a case called Nevsun. Nevsun is accused of using slave labour to build its mine in Africa.

Minister, does the ombudsperson have the power to compel the executives of Nevsun or documents from Nevsun to be able to review and conduct an investigation of that company?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you very much.

It's terrific to be here on the committee with you. You and I are colleagues, and colleagues do our work as we do.

The process that governs the court does not preclude additional actions to be taken in a court of law. In that example, there is an action in the court of law, but the CORE can certainly initiate an investigation, make her findings public, provide her findings to me and advise the withdrawal of services.

The companies I have talked to find those services tremendously useful when you're operating globally. You're looking for the services of our trade commissioner in our missions abroad. In many instances you also are looking for the export insurance that is underwritten by a Crown corporation like Export Development Canada.

Is she able to initiate an investigation? The answer is yes.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

But you would have to agree that it's going to be a limited investigation because the key people, the key documents and the key executives cannot be compelled to come before the ombudsperson to explain their situation. We are in the unhappy situation of having the Canadian courts protect human rights abroad, and to date, notwithstanding some of the reluctance on the part of Canadian courts, they are doing a more aggressive job of protecting human rights where Canadian companies do not wish to disclose what's been happening.

Again, how is it that the ombudsperson could produce a report that would be useful to you if she's not able to talk to the key people?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I'm sorry, but the time is up.

We're moving to Mr. Reid, from the Conservatives.