Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

One of the arguments that's made for the CORE and why it may not have powers to compel, etc., is that there are concerns that Canadian companies may begin to take a very legalistic approach to the ombudsperson investigations instead of co-operating.

You mentioned having a stick to enforce co-operation. What is your response to claims like these?

How do court powers—which exist for companies or for issues to go through that court process for obtaining documents, etc.—play into your recommendations for how the CORE can be improved and in building that collaborative relationship?

[Surya Deva]

Mr. Chair, in fact I met Ms. Meyerhoffer on her very first day in office, and we agreed that having more powers would be more effective.

I don't know what her current position is and what evidence she gave to the subcommittee, but I have been in touch with her, and she agrees that more powers will be necessary. Whether those powers need to be used in a particular case or not is a separate issue.

I would like to repeat that having the powers, as is the case with due process, is needed. Companies also have due process rights, but they sometimes do not co-operate. If they do not co-operate, then those powers have to be used to provide effective remedies.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That concludes your time.

Now we're moving to Mr. Chiu, from the Conservatives, for three minutes.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Deva, I will just follow up on what MP Khalid was asking. Compared against the world, Canada does not, by far, have the largest number of overseas investments and operations around the world.

You mentioned that there are definitely things Canada could do better in terms of mandating the CORE. I wonder how Canada, and also western countries, compare with some of the up-and-comers such as, for example, companies from the People's Republic of China, in terms of respecting and being in compliance with local environmental regulations, mediation of labour conflicts, and following the human rights guidelines of the UN.

What would you say on that?

[Surya Deva]

Every country is different, Mr. Chair. I think it's difficult to compare apples with oranges, but of course Chinese companies operating globally are facing significant challenges, and it is of great concern for the working group on business and human rights that these companies, in many situations, are not respecting human rights, whether they are operating inside or outside China.

I think we should not be looking at those examples; rather, Canada should be leading, should it not? If, as a global leader, it would like to lead on human rights, Canada should look at the countries and companies that are leading, rather than at countries and companies that are not leading on this particular front.

At the same time, I should clarify that we should not be making sweeping statements, such as that all Chinese companies are this, and all Canadian companies are that. I think there are good companies and bad companies operating from different jurisdictions, different countries. We should be taking an evidence-based, objective approach.

I think the road map for Canada is very clear. It must enact—

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I would like to take on your offer to table for the committee the list of countries that in a previous question MP Khalid asked you for.

Also, in the remaining 30 seconds I'd like you to comment on the working group on business and human rights. What kind of oversight does it have of global international companies investing in other operations?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have 20 seconds, Mr. Deva.

[Surya Deva]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be happy to provide additional information on what powers these national human rights institutions have in different jurisdictions and how the CORE can be inspired by those powers in discharging their mandate and jurisdiction.

Regarding your second point, the working group on business and human rights does not have the power of investigation. We have the power to accept complaints, but then what happens is that we write to the governments and companies saying that they should respect human rights. We have, then, the power of persuasion. That is the point I am hammering again and again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

[Surya Deva]

We should create institutions—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Deva. We appreciate that you will forward those documents.

Now we're moving to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for three minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since these are my last comments, I want to thank the witnesses for joining us this evening.

Ms. Lavery, I have one last question for you. Do you believe that the companies that you funded are guilty of human rights violations?

It's a fairly simple and straightforward question.

[Mairead Lavery]

As I said at the outset, we support more than 24,000 Canadian companies and a number of international companies as well. We rely on our due diligence processes to ensure that the companies have made human rights impacts around the world.

We can [Technical difficulty—Editor] to ensure that they haven't. That being said, if something were to happen, we would then have to enter into a discussion with the company and use our leverage to affect the way they're going to remedy that situation.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Do you think that you may be funding companies that violate human rights?

[Mairead Lavery]

I am personally not aware of any company that EDC is supporting that is violating human rights.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Lavery.

Mr. Deva, the ombudsperson and the minister seem to think that a website where victims of human rights violations can submit complaints is sufficient.

However, in your opinion, can an activist who wants to take on a multinational corporation, which is probably colluding with local authorities and possibly monitoring their Internet communications, feel at ease approaching the CORE?

[Surya Deva]

The website is a good starting point. There are a number of ways in which a complaint could be made to the CORE. Going forward, the CORE has to go to those different countries where Canadian companies are operating, especially if there are a significant number of Canadian footprints in those countries.

You would have to go to the local jurisdictions, work with the Canadian embassies and consulates in those jurisdictions, create tools that are in the local language, and create tools by which people could report in confidence, because a state business nexus is also a big issue. There is corporate capture. Sometimes government officials leak information to the companies, and this is problematic. We have to safeguard against those risks to the defenders and the victims.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you for being here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We're moving to our last questioner, Ms. McPherson, for three minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would also like to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today. It has been a very interesting conversation.

I have some questions for Mr. Deva.

First, I would like to follow up on my colleague, Mr. Chiu, and encourage you to submit documents and share some of the concrete examples. If you wouldn't mind tabling the most recent UN working group recommendations to Canada to be part of this study, that would be very useful.

I would also like to follow up on the question that Ms. Khalid asked earlier. The minister talked about this being very groundbreaking for a very new office, the first of its kind in the world, but if I understand correctly, you're saying this version of the CORE is replicating what the NCP has already done.

Would you see that as correct? Could you comment on that?

[Surya Deva]

I'll be happy to provide those reports that are relevant for the subcommittee's mandate regarding this particular issue.

In addition to the CORE, let me be very clear, it's not an either/or situation. The CORE is an important step. Let us get this right. At the same time, to make it effective, it needs those powers that it lacks at this particular point in time. We made the recommendation very clearly before it was established. We made that clear in 2018, when it was not even established.

Those boxes have not been ticked. My understanding is that the government promised that those powers would be conferred on the CORE, and they have not been conferred.

Mediation is done by the initial contact point already. What is the purpose of the CORE investing its resources in mediation, because that function is already done by the NCP? That is duplication.

We should create the CORE somewhere between the NCP on the one hand, and the courts on the other hand. It should be able to function like a non-judicial body that is not doing what the courts do, and not doing what the NCP does. It can do that if it has those powers that we recommended in the 2018 report.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I have one last question for you, Mr. Deva, and I ask this of other witnesses as well.

What are the impacts on Canada's international reputation when we see what companies are doing around the world? It's not every Canadian company. It's a small number, but what are the implications for our reputation?

[Surya Deva]

The reputation of any country is at stake if it cannot ensure that its international human rights obligations are respected.

The UN guiding principles expect all states to lay down expectations of their businesses, operating inside or outside. It is an obligation of the Canadian government to lay down those expectations through mandatory human rights due diligence legislation, and provide access to effective remedy through the courts and non-judicial mechanisms like the CORE.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you so much.