Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 20th, 2021

[Pierre Gratton]

We are basing our position on the experience of others who have done this. Canada's not the first in the world to consider an ombudsman.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

The example that was raised was the success that Canada has had in the mining industry particularly in Canada, and there's a lot of truth to that. Environmental laws, human rights laws, etc.... We are an exemplary nation in that area, but why are we an exemplary nation in that area? It's the ability to compel testimony, to compel documents and to hold people to account.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you. That's the time.

We're moving to MP Scott Reid for the Conservatives for seven minutes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Correction, we're moving to Mr. Chiu, my colleague, for the first four minutes, and then I'll get the last three.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for PDAC, Ms. McDonald.

In this committee, we just finished hearing testimony from, for example, Peru. There was a Canadian company that reneged on its responsibility and has created huge problems for the indigenous community. Would you say that the CORE is still efficient in cases like that? It's an oil extraction operation in Peru, and its behaviour has caused significant spillage in the area, significantly hurting the indigenous population there.

How could you think that the CORE is efficient and effective?

[Lisa McDonald]

I think at this juncture in time there have been no complaints that have been brought forward to the CORE. At this point we are looking forward, and we are looking for this process to be under way, and we don't know that the CORE is effective or isn't effective at this point.

I think we all agree that we have all spent the last couple of years working toward getting us to this point in time, so it would be very difficult for me to make a comment on testimony that was given by a previous witness, not really understanding the context.

In general I think my comment would be, as we have stated and our other colleagues have stated as well, and Ms. Meyerhoffer herself stated in her testimony, that the office has now been set up and is now set to receive complaints, and we are looking forward to that process.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

Let's move on to another question.

Chinese state enterprises are one of Canada's primary mining sector competitors around the world and are increasingly displacing Canadian operations. We have seen this in recent years in Southeast Asia and Africa.

Could you highlight for the subcommittee some of the differences in approaches and impacts on host communities you have observed and noted when the Chinese flag is flying at a mine site instead of the Maple Leaf?

[Lisa McDonald]

Given that PDAC represents mostly the exploration sector and that my colleagues at MAC represent the operators, I would respectfully pass that question along to Pierre.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Fair enough. I just have one minute.

Thank you.

[Pierre Gratton]

We certainly hear a lot of different stories about Chinese operations in Africa, for example. They bring in their own workers. They bring in their own workers in Ecuador. Sometimes these workers are prisoners. They bring their prisoners to work in the mines. Their practices in engaging with the state governments are not the same as ours either. Slowly but surely they are crowding us out. Their presence all over Southeast Asia is enormous. Our own ability to become a battery powerhouse is curtailed or limited, constrained by the fact that they have an increasing control over nickel because of their presence in Southeast Asia.

It's a very, very difficult market out there. It is true. They're state-owned enterprises. They aren't transparent. They have no requirements to disclose like publicly traded companies do. It's a very unlevel playing field.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

Over to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Mr. Reid, are you taking it?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Yes.

Actually, in pursuing the issue of Chinese state-owned enterprises, first of all, I should be clear on this question, Mr. Gratton. Is it the case that most of the Chinese companies in the mining sector are, in fact, state-owned enterprises as opposed to being private companies operating out of China?

[Pierre Gratton]

There is a very thin distinction between the two when it exists.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Right. I think I know what you're getting at. Huawei is not a mining company, but it's a nominally private company that's largely owned by a trade union that is, itself—

[Pierre Gratton]

—an arm of the state.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

—an arm of the state. Similar sorts of situations would exist.

[Pierre Gratton]

Yes, that's right.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

My own experience in this regard is very limited.

I had the opportunity to go to Eritrea to visit a Canadian company, a Canadian mine site owned by a company called Nevsun in a place called Bisha. What became clear to me while I was there was that, whatever the sins of the Canadians may or may not have been in this situation, there was interest within the Eritrean government, from some participants in that government, in having Canada operating there because, in a sense, the Canadians are innocent. We just want to go in and make money. That's our entire agenda. We have certain rules that we have to operate under. If you want to float a new bond issue on a Canadian securities stock exchange, you have to meet with certain criteria regarding labour standards and environmental standards and so on. These are all audited. [Inaudible—Editor] you want to walk away with some money. That's all we want to do, whereas the Chinese state wants to do a good deal more. It wants to get involved in the running of your country.

This seems to me to be a competitive advantage. What we're trying to resolve here are issues where, in this particular case but also in many others, there's a supply chain of products or services that are provided to the Canadian company that may have involved human rights abuses. What do we do to make sure that we can deal with that so that Canadian companies can continue to operate without being overly encumbered by our regulations in order to compete with the Chinese in any country in the world?

[Pierre Gratton]

I don't know, Ben, if you want to speak to this one. I am somewhat familiar with the Nevsun case. They were not a member of ours, but it's a very well-known one.

The response, which Nevsun undertook once the issue became so high profile, was to do their due diligence. Today, companies would know early on they should do their due diligence, so practices—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Gratton.

We are going to move to the Bloc and Monsieur Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe for seven minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. Your presentations were very informative. We have been working on this study for a while, and your perspective matters a lot; it will play an important role in the report we eventually submit.

The previous panel told us that Canada was not the leader it claimed to be when it came to assuming its responsibilities. Since our study began, the committee has been hearing the same thing at every meeting. It's quite telling.

Today, you are telling us that continuing to be leaders is a priority for you, and yet, you do not think it is necessary to give the ombudsperson investigative powers. You say it's not feasible because the alleged crimes were committed outside the country. Some of you even drew comparisons with China.

That brings me to a question for you, Mr. Gratton.

Will you concede that companies belonging to your association are committing crimes in other countries?

I'm not sure whether you heard the same stories we did, but no one from the industry indicated that Canadian mining companies had committed crimes abroad. Is that an oversight?

[Pierre Gratton]

Our association represents 45 companies that operate in Canada. Not all of them are Canadian companies. I cannot say whether any of our Canadian members have committed crimes in other countries. Naturally, even in Canada, when a company is responsible for environmental violations, it has to repair the damage, clean up the environment and so on.

I know that there were issues in the past. When the—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I am talking about now. It has happened in the past, yes, but I am talking about the present.

I am asking you, but the question is for all the witnesses. We are here to have a frank discussion, after all.

[Pierre Gratton]

I can't say that every mining company behaves well. Some are better than others. That's true of every company in society. Some are better behaved than others.