Evidence of meeting #19 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Guzman.
Mr. Pappier, how do you think the government will react to the international pressure?
8:20 p.m.
Americas Senior researcher, Human Rights Watch
When it comes to the protests, the government has been sensitive to international pressure. Of course, the situation on the ground continues to be dire and troubling. We have at least begun to see a change in the discourse by the Colombian government. It's starting to raise the issue of police violence. What is needed is a more unequivocal condemnation of these instances of police violence, and serious steps need to be taken to end these instances of violence, of course.
If there is international scrutiny and pressure, it can help to make sure that President Duque will change course. Otherwise, we are likely to see more and more people being killed. At Human Rights Watch, we are getting reports that at least two or three people are getting killed every night. That is part of the reason that this international pressure is needed, and I would say urgently.
8:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Pappier.
Mr. Guzman, I'm sensing that you are passionate, so I will give you the floor. Do you have a message to share?
8:20 p.m.
Sociologist and Popular Educator, Assemblée populaire de colombiens et colombiennes à la Ville de Québec, Carrefour d'animation et de participation à un monde ouvert
Yes, thank you very much.
I have a message for all the people mobilizing all over the world. Many Colombians and human rights organizations around the world are mobilizing to express their solidarity with Colombia. I would like to thank them and tell them that we must continue to increase the pressure, because this must stop. Open carnage is caught on everyone's cameras and no one is bothered. We have to keep the pressure on.
Thank you very much for your time. I speak not only for myself, but for the hundreds of Colombians who are protesting today in Canada and who are hoping for a clear response from the Canadian government to this particularly difficult situation.
8:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Gracias a ustedes.
Mr. Chair, I would like to advise you that I will be raising a point of order at the end, and I do not want the witnesses to see that.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
8:20 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To the witnesses, thank you very much for coming here and sharing this information with us. I have been speaking to a number of different people who are really quite concerned, people from Colombia and people who are concerned for the people of Colombia. Having your testimony and being able to put forward a report and share information with parliamentarians is vital for us to be able to support the people of Colombia at this time. Thank you very much.
I have a few questions. I'll start with Mr. Pappier.
First of all, from your understanding, does the Colombian government have an official list of people who have died or been injured or disappeared as a result of the violence experienced in the last few days?
8:20 p.m.
Americas Senior researcher, Human Rights Watch
Yes. From my experience, yes. We are in close communication with the prosecutors who are investigating the cases with the attorney general's office in Colombia and with the ombudsperson's office in Colombia. There is a list of people who have been reported as killed. There is a list of people who have disappeared or people who are missing. Fortunately, many missing people have recently been found.
There is certainly a list. It might be incomplete and it might have some shortcomings, but there is certainly a list.
8:20 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Of that, do you know how many investigations are currently under way into the violence by the police and by the military?
8:25 p.m.
Americas Senior researcher, Human Rights Watch
The attorney general's office has opened investigations into the 47 people killed. According to their own investigations, only 13 of these deaths appear to be related to the protests. They have said publicly that they have evidence identifying the specific police officer involved in three cases. So far, two police officers have been arrested. Of course, we would hope for much more, given that there are videos showing specific cases where protestors were killed.
8:25 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
We heard earlier from my colleague from the Liberal Party about the impacts on women in Colombia. We know that when there are crises like this, women are disproportionately impacted. Can you share any data or any stories or any information that you might have with regard to the impact that this crisis has had on women?
8:25 p.m.
Americas Senior researcher, Human Rights Watch
Just to clarify, do you mean the protests?
8:25 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Yes, and the crackdown by the military and police forces.
8:25 p.m.
Americas Senior researcher, Human Rights Watch
We have documented several cases of sexual violence by police officers against women. That's certainly a risk for some women who are protesting. I think that's probably the most visible way in which the disproportionate impact on women is manifested in this crisis. There are probably other ways that reflect this effect. We have seen reports of women being threatened with being raped or other similar cases. Of course, women are afraid of being detained because of the risk of sexual violence that it might potentially entail.
That's the information I can share, based on our research so far.
8:25 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
Mr. Guzman, do you have something you'd like to add to that?
8:25 p.m.
Sociologist and Popular Educator, Assemblée populaire de colombiens et colombiennes à la Ville de Québec, Carrefour d'animation et de participation à un monde ouvert
Yes, if I may.
We are talking about research and data, but I would like to say that the justice system in Colombia cannot be trusted. The attorney general is a close friend of the president. It has been demonstrated that he is incapable of shedding any light on the false statements and the massacres. In this year so far, there have been 27 massacres in the country. In Colombia, the justice system has no credibility, because it is allied with the government.
As I told you, they have said that the government is making efforts to improve the situation. We know the government's response. The former leader of the party, Álvaro Uribe, wrote on Twitter that the police and the army should shoot people. After he wrote that, the police did indeed shoot people. I don't trust the Colombian government when it comes to justice, because there is no evidence that justice is being done.
The report of the Universidad de las Américas Puebla states that Colombia is the country with the highest rate of impunity. Human rights situations are not taken seriously. Let's take the situation of women as an example. In one instance, a woman teacher was abducted by police officers. The police raped her, impaled her and cut her into pieces. The police did this simply because she was opposed to the reform and had demonstrated with other teachers.
We know that the truth about cases like that will not be known. In Colombia, it can take 20 years. Only after the International Criminal Court or the Inter-American Court of Human Rights issues a verdict does the government recognize such crimes.
8:25 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
It's horrifying testimony. One of the things that is so sad about this is that we know the important role women played in the peace process in Colombia. The world saw the important role that women played. To know that this is the result is very heartbreaking.
I have one very quick question to ask, if I could—
8:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you, MP McPherson. That's all the time.
On our collective behalf, I thank the witnesses for their courage, for their bravery in coming forward and sharing these stories and answering the many questions. We thank you so much for that.
Members, I would like to speak to you. I know a number of members have reached out to me.
As you just heard from our witnesses, we had some very courageous people come before us here today. I wanted to make sure that those witnesses had the time to be able to share their stories and be able to answer our questions through the time that we had set through our notice of meeting for today.
On that, I know that members have brought forward a sensitive issue that needs to be discussed. It is very sensitive. It concerns people, so we would prefer to do something like that in camera. We'd also want to be able to provide justice in it.
I know members would like to speak to the issue that has been brought to my attention by a couple of members; however, at this time also, a number of members—
8:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
One moment, MP Brunelle-Duceppe.
A number of members have brought this forward, but a number of members have also explained to me and have reached out and have said that this is Ramadan time, that they have commitments for this evening that they need to get to. We are at 8:30. What I will say is that we will make time—