Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 21st, 2022

[Dr. Ian Spears]

I would say, whatever resources they have at their disposal. The problem is that, really, the only levers we have are things like aid, but aid is exactly what is needed, so it's not clear.... Of course, there are things like diplomatic recognition, but they will see the Tigrayans not as.... They—the government—don't see themselves as the bad guys. In fact, it was just a couple of years ago that Abiy Ahmed won the Nobel Prize and was literally Ethiopia's celebrity politician. As I said in my remarks, they see the TPLF—rightly or wrongly—as an existential threat.

They will withstand, I think, a fair bit of pressure before they relent, but there have been indications on both sides that when the pressure is significant, then they offer, I suppose, some concessions. However, it never seems to be enough, and I don't think they will allow it to get in the way of defeating what they regard as their adversary.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Spears.

Now, I will go to Mr. Gebreluel, if I could.

I have spoken to members of the Tigrayan community in Canada, and one thing that has been very frustrating is that they are unable and incapable of sending assistance to their loved ones and relatives back home.

Is there anything that can be done on that particular front to help members of the community if there's financial assistance or items that they want to send back home? Is there a solution to this? It's really difficult to speak to members of the Tigrayan community, who are rightfully concerned and have no way of assisting.

[Goitom Gebreluel]

Thank you for that wonderful question.

I think it's important to recognize that this is a siege that's an outcome of policy; this is strategy. For example, we have famine in Ethiopia now because Tigrayans cannot access their bank accounts. You have people who have a lot of money in their bank accounts but they can't access it, so they're starving to death.

This isn't a technical problem, and there isn't a technical solution to it. This is a deliberate, calculated strategy to starve people to death, so we have to look at the broader political level.

To your earlier question, there is a great deal that the international community can do. The point is that the international community has really done nothing—practically nothing. We're not even condemning these atrocities in strong terms. We're basically not even talking about it. How many governments in the west today, in explicit terms, are talking about the use of mass starvation as a weapon of war by the Ethiopian government? How many are condemning them in the way that they condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine? Even at the discursive level, we're not willing to talk about it. If you look at the media, they go out of their way to obscure the intentional nature of the famine that has been essentially engineered.

I think there is a great deal we can do.

The first thing is to accurately describe what's going on, condemn it, and then make very concrete demands of the Ethiopian government.

Second, the Ethiopian government is economically extremely fragile. The national debt has doubled in the last four years. There is a big foreign exchange crunch. There is a great deal of leverage that the U.S. has, but also other western countries. What's lacking is the political will, which is more or less non-existent. It's not like a real attempt has been made and failed. The problem is that no attempt has been made.

I'll stop there. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Gebreluel.

We're going to continue to our next questioner, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today and taking part in this extremely important study.

This study is the result of a motion put forward by the Bloc Québécois. I am in contact with members of the Tigrayan community, and we speak almost every week.

Mr. Gebreluel, one of the biggest frustrations for the community right now has to do with the inability of western governments to take a stand and call the problem what is. They won't call what's happening in Tigray a “genocide”. That's why you're here today.

Mr. Gebreluel, if we refer to the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, how does the situation in Tigray represent a genocide?

[Goitom Gebreluel]

Thank you for that very excellent question.

I think genocide is a crime with intent, and I think we have two very strong indicators of intent here.

The first one is at a discursive level. The government itself has not been restrained or shy about expressing its intent. Regularly, they've used dehumanizing language to refer to the Tigrayan people. That shows that their target is not the TPLF, but the population at large. We have several instances where talk of exterminating the Tigrayan people has been expressly communicated by mass media, either by officials or by people who are allies of the government.

We also have a statement by the Finnish foreign minister and EU envoy to the Horn of Africa and Ethiopia, who, after his meetings with Ethiopian officials a year ago, stated that they told him they were going to “wipe out” the Tigrayans, so on a number of occasions, the government itself has made its intention to exterminate or destroy Tigray very clear.

Second, we have behavioural indicators that show this intent. We have the use of mass starvation as a weapon of war. We have very strong evidence that this is deliberate, intentional and systematic. At this point, there is no controversy around that. If anyone thinks that this is not indicative of an intent to kill part or all of Tigray, I would be interested in hearing the logic of the argument. What is the motivation behind putting an entire population under siege, denying them access to food, destroying their crops and essentially engineering famine if it's not to kill all of them? What happens—what is the logical sequence of outcomes—when one does that? Of course, it is the mass murder or extermination of an entire population.

We have a number of behavioural indicators showing that they are taking systemic actions in order to destroy the Tigrayan people. Recently, a report by the UN Human Rights Council also stated that this intent—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Gebreluel.

Mr. Spears, you're an expert on the issue. You've published a number of articles on leadership and the limits of government intervention in Africa. In a 2007 article, you talk about the international community's efforts to help restore peace.

Where do you stand now on the international community's leadership in Tigray?

As a follow-up question, I'd like to know where you stand on Canada's leadership when it comes to the conflict in Tigray as compared with international efforts.

[Dr. Ian Spears]

I'm just wondering if you'd clarify the question. Are you asking about the leadership of the Tigrayans in the international community?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

No, that wasn't my question.

I read the article you published in 2007 on leadership and the limits of government intervention in Africa. My question is about the international community and government intervention in Africa.

Where do you stand on the international community's leadership?

[Dr. Ian Spears]

I guess my problem is that there are limitations on what can be done. I suppose the leadership is disappointing. The problem I always have is that I hear people saying there's a lack of political will. I'm not always clear on specifically what the international community thinks should be done.

The problem that Africa faces, the problem that Ethiopia faces and that occurs all across Africa, is that you have state borders that are drawn by outsiders, and that is the challenge that African rulers must contend with from independence forward.

I suppose there is a lack of leadership, but I always want to know specifically what you would say should be done. I don't think that Ethiopia is necessarily being ignored. I think the fact that we're having this discussion today shows that Canada is showing some leadership. Obviously, I know you've had meetings prior to today on this issue.

The challenge is that this is going to be a forever problem because there is not a coherent regime. There are multiple political traditions across Africa contained within one state, and Ethiopia is among the most profound demonstrations of that problem. You have several groups that regard themselves as being entitled to rule and as wanting to assume power in order to protect themselves—not because they're power-hungry but because they regard that as being central to their group's protection.

So there are limitations on what the international community can do, whether or not they want to demonstrate leadership.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Dr. Spears.

We're going to continue with our next questioner, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our witnesses for being with us today. Of course your testimony is incredibly difficult to hear, and it's making me feel as though we need to do more. It's hard to hear that the solutions are particularly hard to come by.

I do worry. I'm grateful that we are taking on this study right now. This is something that's been happening since November 2020. I think it is something that we should have been studying much sooner. I know we tried to do this in the last session.

I do wonder if it is the complexity of this issue that is causing the world to turn away or why the world is turning away. Obviously we see the global community focusing quite a bit on what is happening in Ukraine and what has happened in Afghanistan. There are many hot spots around the world that require our attention, but I am alarmed that we are not seeing the international community raise this particular conflict more actively, given the loss of life, the clear genocidal acts that are taking place, the attacks on civilians and the attacks on schools and hospitals.

From what I'm hearing from the testimony and the questions we've heard, there needs to be a solution regardless of the fact that there are some very deep, potentially unsolvable problems. There does need to be some sort of a ceasefire, some sort of way to get humanitarian aid in and some sort of way to come up with a resolution of some sort.

I'll start with you, Mr. Gebreluel, but I'll ask both of you the same question. Ultimately, what is the role for Canada? What is the role for multilateral institutions, humanitarian institutions, the United Nations, the African Union? What is the role for those, and how does Canada play a bigger role in influencing those multilateral institutions? Ultimately, what's happening on the ground is horrific, and Canada, as a huge contributor to Ethiopia, must be able to have some sort of influence for a solution.

I will start with you, Mr. Gebreluel.

[Goitom Gebreluel]

Thank you for a fantastic question.

I'll go back to the same argument that I was making earlier. An easy initiative that comes at a very low cost for any global actor today is really to put Tigray on the agenda and to clearly state what's going on. There's been a systematic attempt by media, civil society actors and diplomats to really obscure what's going on in Tigray.

It's really interesting that it's taken two years to have this conversation, globally. It's important to ask what was going on during the past two years. In the past two years, we've seen the international community really try to bury this story. There are many indicators that one can point to, such as regurgitating the government's views on things. There's been a very clear interest in not upsetting the Ethiopian government. I think it's important to move from that. It's important to have one's priorities clear.

I think that simply putting this on the agenda will have a ripple effect whereby other western countries and other governments will follow this lead, particularly partnering up with the U.S. I think the U.S. is divided fifty-fifty on this issue. Really pushing from the outside to take a harsher stance on Ethiopia could have an big impact.

I think it's important to point out those countries that are fuelling this conflict. We've seen massive amounts of weapons being flown to Ethiopia from countries like the UAE, Iran and Turkey. Many of them are allies of the U.S. and Canada. Putting pressure on them and exposing their actions and roles in this can be very important.

Finally, I think it's important to distinguish the complex political issues from the mass atrocities. It's fine that we have political conflict. It's one thing that we can't agree on democracy, that certain groups want to rule or that we have flawed elections. It's another thing to use mass starvation as a weapon of war. I think it's important to focus on those core elements, regardless of what happens politically. No one should be using starvation as a weapon of war. No one should be engaging in ethnic cleansing. We shouldn't be putting tens of thousands of civilians in ethnic concentration camps. Really focusing on these narrow, core human rights issues is what's needed in the immediate term. The political questions can be engaged with through different means over the long term. However, immediately, this is what I think should be prioritized.

Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I'll ask Dr. Spears for his thoughts, if I could. I know we don't have very much time left.

[Dr. Ian Spears]

Well, the obvious things are.... If Canada wants to be as even-handed as possible, which I assume it does, it can offer venues for negotiations or support and encourage negotiations. Second, it can apply economic pressure on the government to the extent that it's possible, being aware that there are problems and challenges associated with that, too. I would be very concerned if the government were to collapse. Third would be to reward progress. When progress is being made, that would require Canada to step up and provide incentives for more progress, but again—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Dr. Spears.

We're now going to have a final round. We'll have two minutes for each party. It will likely give you one question and an answer.

We're going to start off with Mr. Sidhu for two minutes, please.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Spears, would you like to continue and finish your answer? I'm sorry that you were cut off there.

[Dr. Ian Spears]

Well, my answer is, again, to raise.... I feel that I'm not being very helpful, that I'm causing more problems than anything else.

If there are problems to be solved, at some point there has to be a decision made about what Canada wants out of this situation: Are you wanting to support the government, or are you wanting to support the TPLF?

I understand this is a decision that people don't want to make, but in some ways it's going to be unavoidable, because both groups are powerful. The Ethiopian government has huge numbers of troops. It defeated the Eritreans in 2000 by just throwing more troops at them. They are not going away, and neither is the TPLF. Managing those two, beyond just saying that you want to include people, is going to be difficult.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

You have 45 seconds, if you want to use that.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

I can't get in a question and an answer in 45 seconds, so I'll just say thank you to both witnesses for their time today. It was definitely very insightful. Thank you, again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Sidhu.

We'll continue to our next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

This is a very complicated situation. It's been there for a long time.

With regard to a specific question, what can the Canadian government do to influence the Ethiopian government to allow for shipments to the Tigray region? I think that has been a problem in the last month, although through a ceasefire, there could be a chance that this would flow again. I think that if there is anything Canada can do, it's probably to influence the government to allow for shipments.

Dr. Spears, do you believe there's a possibility that Canada has the capacity to play this role?

[Dr. Ian Spears]

Whether it has the capacity, I don't know. Whenever I'm in Ethiopia, I see Canadian aid shipments, so I suppose it is possible. I'm not sure how much aid Canada provides.

The problem is that groups become more amenable to making concessions when they're under military pressure, and that is what has happened in the last few months. That is the part that is difficult to disentangle. Governments will be more amenable when they are under pressure. The central government in Addis Ababa was more amenable when the TPLF was 160 kilometres from its border.

That is yet another challenge that Canada has to contend with.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

I have a short question.

Should the Canadian government recognize genocide?