Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 28th, 2022

[Dr. Mukesh Kapila]

The most likely reason is that the armed forces in Ethiopia are not strong enough to achieve a successful military outcome, from their perspective, in the conflict in and around Tigray. This means they have to rely on the Eritrean military, which, as we know, has a long history of animosity toward the Tigrayans. Really, it's a combination of the two.

Quite honestly, my suspicion is also from some military analysis. I do not think the Ethiopian military has the capacity to stop the Eritreans coming into the country. It may well be that Abiy is calling on the Eritreans for assistance in his military campaign against Tigray, but at the same time, I do not think the Ethiopians are strong enough to hold the Eritreans away. Remember, they had a serious conflict in the past, and it was more or less a stalemate for many years.

It's a combination of those kinds of weaknesses of the Ethiopian military, as well as expediency on the part of the leadership of both countries against their common enemy, which is Tigray.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I recognize this is a very complex issue in a very complex part of the world. As Canadian parliamentarians, of course, our primary goal is to find ways that Canada can help, and what we can do to stop the atrocities in Tigray. Ethiopia is a large recipient of Canadian aid, and we have had a long relationship with the people of Ethiopia.

Knowing there is a lack of access to humanitarian aid in Tigray, and that food, medicine, banking and communications, all of these, have been denied to the region of Tigray, what can Canada do right now to help stop the atrocities we are seeing in Tigray?

[Dr. Mukesh Kapila]

You mentioned aid, and I speak as a former British government aid official, so also from experience. When one encounters inhumanity, the best way to counter inhumanity is through humanity. I would like to suggest that the generous Government of Canada should not consider reducing aid to Ethiopia, because the quarrel is not with the general population of Ethiopia. It is with a certain segment, which has been manipulated by government authorities and some state authorities in that area.

Canadian aid should be targeted. It should be targeted toward humanitarian assistance, but there should be no conditionality placed on it, other than that it should be going to benefit those who need it. Food is a good example. Of course, climate change, drought and all those extended factors don't help the Horn of Africa.

Having said that, and in answering your main question, it is extremely important that you complete your study as parliamentarians, you come to your determination and, like you did with the case of the Uighurs in China, if you are convinced by the arguments presented to you and your own research, you could make a super declaration regarding the war in Tigray. Is it genocide? Is it not? I assert that it is, but you will have to come to your own conclusions in that regard.

The second thing you can do is also talk to the judicial authorities in Canada and urge, as I was saying earlier in my remarks, that genocide and other crimes against humanity are crimes of universal jurisdiction. It is open to Canadian courts and can actually be investigated. Germany has already done that. In Germany, for example, some Syrian perpetrators of crimes against humanity have come before German courts. We also have the situation where a west African country, The Gambia, I believe, has taken the Government of Myanmar to the International Court of Justice. There are legal approaches.

There are also many suffering Ethiopians, Tigrayans, Eritreans and so on in Canada. Many of them have also become Canadian nationals. It should be open to the victims of this genocidal violence to seek compensation in the courts of Canada. There is nothing that concentrates the mind more than to actually sue, identify the people who are committing these atrocities, sanction them from entering and seize their assets through targeted sanctions approaches. The victims, many of whom are Canadian residents and Canadian citizens, could then seek some compensation for this, so there are measures that can be taken.

Finally, Canada could take a much more robust position at the United Nations. We are paralyzed by the Security Council. We all know that. That is why more and more of the action has shifted to the General Assembly. Canada can have more of a diplomatic role in much larger circles than it has at the moment, similarly to what it is doing regarding Ukraine, for example.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you for that, and it was within seven minutes sharp.

Now we'll continue for five minutes with Mr. Ehsassi.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Allow me to thank Professor Kapila for his moving testimony.

Dr. Kebedom, Ms. Arefayne, Ms. Mulugeta, thank you very much. I know it's been difficult to testify, but I thank you.

For my first question, if I may, I will start with Mr. Kiriakakos.

As you know, over the course of the last month, if not more, the international community has sought to see Eritrea withdraw its troops from the Tigray region. What is your reaction to that demand by the international community?

[Lambros Kiriakakos]

It's a very understandable question. It's always, though, inappropriate and not well understood in the western media, because the main component of Eritrea's act of self-defence is not understood properly.

If Eritrea—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much. I just wanted to know if you were in favour of that demand or not. It seems that you're not, sir.

Now I will go to Ms. Asfaw.

Thank you for having provided some context. You would agree and admit that the Ethiopian government can do a much better job to make sure that humanitarian assistance is delivered to Tigrayans. Is that correct?

[Dr. Tihut Asfaw]

Yes, I would agree, because the situation, as mentioned, is very complex. They have tried in the past to provide access to NGOs to get into those conflict areas to provide human support—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

More can be done, though. Is that correct?

[Dr. Tihut Asfaw]

Of course, it's a very complex situation. I would agree, definitely.

If you have a follow-up question—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Would you agree also that Ethiopian troops have committed atrocities over the course of the past 10 months?

[Dr. Tihut Asfaw]

With all due respect to the testimonies that we have heard, definitely I would agree that in every conflict situation there would always be unintended outcomes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Okay, but you would agree that Ethiopian troops have committed—

[Dr. Tihut Asfaw]

If I don't, I would be lying, because it's a conflict. It's expected that unintended outcomes would definitely happen.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

As you know, a UN commission of human rights experts has issued a report, and we know that atrocities have been happening, in particular in Mekelle—

[Dr. Tihut Asfaw]

Maybe on that note, I can mention, if you allow me—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I'm so sorry; I need to share my time with my colleague.

There is obstruction of humanitarian access and terrible atrocities are happening.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to share the remainder of my time with Ms. Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

I wish that we had more time to speak with you, but I think it's been said in this committee that we are on the side of humanity. I think all of us will agree that it is exactly why we're here.

What I've heard is that it isn't the combatants that are being targeted; it is civilians.

Ms. Arefayne, with your family and in the story you told about your family, these are civilians who are being targeted. These are people's mothers, fathers, uncles, brothers and sisters.

I was very moved, horrified, by the sexual violence that Dr. Kebedom and Ms. Mulugeta described.

My question to you, particularly Dr. Kebedom, is this: Would you say that the sexual violence that is occurring is being deliberately used as a weapon of war?

[Dr. Abel Giday Kebedom]

I would say definitely. If you're asking me to tell you some of the stories, I have been hearing a lot of stories. The perpetrators were not only committing sexual violence; they were also telling them they had to purify Tigrayan blood. Let me tell you one story as an example.

There was this lady. She's a breast cancer survivor. She was raped by eight Eritrean men. She heard all that they were saying up until the fourth man. After that, she lost consciousness. She spoke to me and told me that they said, “You're a cursed people, so we have to purify your blood. You fought us with Ethiopia and then you made us starve. You put Eritrea under sanction for several years by combining with the Ethiopians.” They were telling her a lot of insults that I cannot mention here.

She was not the only one. I remember stories. I remember that one lady was raped in front of her two children, and her husband was killed in front of her children. She was raped by a combination of the Amhara military and the Ethiopian National Defense Force. She's from Humera. She was told, “This part of western Tigray was ours. You are invaders.” It was clearly used as a weapon of war.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Dr. Kebedom.

We'll continue now to our next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif, for five minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the witnesses for appearing today.

It's a very complicated situation. In this case, what begs the question is: Where is peace and how can we make sure we at least stop these horrible and horrific actions that have been taken against women, children and innocent people? With some of the stories, we can only imagine but can never feel what the people there have been going through at all levels of atrocities, crimes, human rights abuses and so forth.

I'd like to direct my question to Ms. Asfaw, and I would love for Professor Kapila to weigh in on it.

Given the mistrust in the region, how can there be any sort of lasting peace, knowing that peace negotiations are going on in South Africa at the moment? I would like to hear from both Ms. Asfaw and Professor Kapila on this question.

Thank you.

[Dr. Tihut Asfaw]

To build trust again will definitely take a lot of work, but there has to be the desire to come to the table and discuss all the issues and what led us to the place we are at right now. Conflict or war does not happen overnight. There have been a lot of issues that have been brewing under the surface, including ethnic division and the politicization of identity. All of that has to be addressed.

My recommendation would be for the government to take a bold step to look at the Constitution and see where the fault lines are, but, in addition to that, I think all Ethiopian people, everyone in Tigray and Amhara and all the different regions, will have to be willing to sit at the table and discuss all the issues and resolve them based on discussion and also the thinking that, unless we deal with it, this will be a problem that will pass to the next generation, to our children in the next generation. We have to deal with it.

Even now, having this discussion here, as my brother said, is not to score a point and it's not to show who is hurt more. If we do that and if we start, for example, talking about what's happening in Amhara and in other regions, the same atrocities have been committed.

I know my brother said not to mention the TPLF, but the reason we are in this situation right now is the TPLF, a group that has been in power for 27 years. It still has control over a lot of these apparatuses.

The first thing in my recommendation would be to disarm the TPLF and to allow a peaceful discussion and resolution of these differences that are leading to further bloodshed and further destruction.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

Dr. Kapila.

[Dr. Mukesh Kapila]

On the matter of peacekeeping, I've written about it. I'm monitoring the talks in Pretoria. Here's what I have learned about peace talks, having spent countless hours in conference rooms in peace talks around the world. The first thing is it's the little steps that make a difference towards a bigger peace. My worry is that if the triangle of three senior African leaders puts too much pressure on the two sides, then sure, they'll sign a piece of paper. I've sat through so many peace talks where paper after paper has been signed under external pressure—French pressure in Côte d'Ivoire, British pressure in Sierra Leone, etc.—and it never goes anywhere. It's important to take the small steps first.

The second thing I would say is that trust comes not from talking about trust, but taking actions on the ground that build that trust. Here again I say this is a very bizarre process going on in South Africa. I've never come across a peace process, at least in the recent 20 or 30 years of my experience, where peace talks have been going on while fighting has been going on the ground. Usually what happens is you cease fighting and then you come around the table.

Here, what we have, thanks to the efforts of our American friends—and this is to be commended, by the way—is they have brought the two sides together. South Africa has provided a generous table, and the African Union has finally woken up to all this. It's all good, but I think unless we have some confidence-building measures taken on the ground, for example, the cessation of fighting and letting humanitarian aid go through, we're not going to have peace on the ground. My conclusion is that if at the end of this week, on Sunday, the Tigrayan side and the Ethiopian side are still talking, and they extend the talks, or if they agree to meet again, that will have been a victory. Let's not expect too much. Let us just wish them well to carry on talking, and then I hope peace will eventually come.