Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 9th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Good morning, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 22 of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights.

This meeting is happening in a hybrid format, pursuant to the order of June 23, 2022.

I have a few comments for the witnesses and the members here in person and participating by Zoom.

Please wait until I recognize that you have the floor. When you speak via Zoom, and even in person, speak slowly and clearly for the interpreters. They interpret what you're saying and put that into another language, either English or French.

For those participating by Zoom, you can choose either floor, English or French.

Today we're going to be continuing the study on Haiti.

We have two witnesses appearing in person and several others participating by videoconference.

First, we have with us, in the room, Monique Clesca, Journalist, Writer and Pro-Democracy Activist, from the Bureau de suivi de l'Accord de Montana.

Also in person we have, from Partners In Health Canada, Mark Brender, national director.

We have online, from Centre d'analyse et de recherche en droits de l'homme, Gédéon Jean, chief executive officer. From the International Crisis Group, we have Renata Segura, associate director, Latin America and the Caribbean, and Diego Da Rin, consultant, Latin America and the Caribbean.

We also have, participating by Zoom, Pastor Jean Kisomair Duré, from the Protestant Federation of Haiti.

Everyone will have five minutes for opening remarks, except for the International Crisis Group. Given that you have two witnesses with us, both of you together will have five minutes.

I'll now open up the floor.

We will begin with Monique Clesca.

I'll give a hand signal when you have one minute left and when you have 30 seconds left. I'll have to interject once we get to five minutes.

Thank you.

[Monique Clesca, Journalist, Writer and Pro-Democracy Activist, Bureau de Suivi de l'Accord de Montana]

Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the Commission to Search for a Haitian Solution to the Crisis and the Bureau de suivi de l'Accord de Montana, which monitors the Montana Accord of August 30, 2021, thank you for this invitation.

Haiti is currently under siege by heavily armed men and women. What is worse, the government, politicians and economic sectors are funding and arming those gangs. We are mired in a situation of profound crisis characterized by a denial of justice and our fundamental rights. The Haitian government is incapable and unwilling to perform its essential function, which is to meet the needs and honour the basic rights of its population.

The present crisis, which has been caused and fomented by men who wield the country's political and economic power, is social, legal, constitutional, economic and political. However, the human rights situation in Haiti cannot be considered apart from the general situation that existed prior to the political crisis.

Since the Haitian Tèt Kale Party, the PHTK, came to power 11 years ago, the state, which should be protecting us, has become a predator state, a criminal state. It is a state in decay, given the pervasive corruption, impunity and ineptitude of its law enforcement agencies, which have also been infiltrated by gangs. As a result of his general indifference, the public has taken to the streets with their claims and demands for accountability for the scandals and respect for fundamental rights and human dignity.

We are experiencing a situation of insecurity, terror and abuse, a situation that I must say preceded the assassination of President Jovenel Moïse, whose term in office was marred by 13 massacres, the politicization of the national police force and the scuttling of Haiti's institutions, including its parliament and high court of appeal.

Ariel Henry, who was sworn in as a result of a tweet from the international community, has no legitimacy. The situation under his autocratic rule is disastrous, and the gangs have rushed in to fill the void. His illegal power has lost its ability to secure even the country's strategic infrastructure and resources, such as its national roads and natural gas.

As the Haitians say, “Pa gen leta”, there is no state. The state doesn't listen to us. The state provides services, hence Haitians' complete loss of trust in the state.

However, there are many specific things that the Henry government could have done, but he has chosen to sit back and do nothing. Instead of rolling up his sleeves and getting to work, on October 7, the illegitimate man in power sought foreign assistance and called on the international community to conduct a military intervention in our country, a crime of high treason. His request underscores the failure of the Henry government and thus international diplomacy that installed him in power and that continues to support him, despite his illegitimate and disastrous governance, perhaps as a result of his complicity in the current disastrous situation.

The Montana Accord proposes a two-year disruptive transition in order to restore the state's sovereign functions and public trust in the country's institutions and political system. We must break with this predatory and autocratic political class and reestablish proper governance. This transition must lead to organized elections, but a framework must be provided in order to guarantee that they are free, credible, transparent and nonviolent.

We are opposed to military intervention in Haiti. However, we want the Police nationale d'Haïti, the PNH, to be reinforced. With technical, financial, logistical and technological assistance, the PNH will be able to make our national roads safe and to connect the country with itself.

The issue today is far greater than merely establishing some semblance of security, and no mopping up operations will solve the problems of the gangs and humanitarian needs. It's not a problem of boots on the ground, but rather a socioeconomic problem. We want programs that promote the entry of disadvantaged young men and women into the economy. We want cooperation consistent with our dignity and sovereignty.

We immediately need urgent humanitarian assistance for people displaced by gangs and living in occupied territories. We need an economic recovery with long-term impact. We will also need to organize a sovereign national conference so we can at last listen to the people.

Our struggle is part of the search for “a Haitian solution”, an expression that was conceived by the commission that drafted the Montana Accord and that refers to a broad consensus among all Haitians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you for your testimony, Ms. Clesca.

We will continue with Mr. Brender.

You have five minutes.

[Mark Brender, National Director, Partners In Health Canada]

Thank you.

It's a privilege to share the perspective of Partners In Health amidst the current crisis. I'd like to thank the committee for the attention you've been giving to Haiti.

Partners In Health was founded in Haiti in the mid-1980s. It's where so much of our organizational expertise and values come from, so we're very appreciative of this opportunity.

Haiti, as we know, is the world's first independent Black republic and the first to overthrow colonial rule, setting the path for independence movements worldwide. It's a legacy that created a better world for all of us, and it's one that we should never forget. We should not forget, either, that Haiti was made to pay a devastating price for its freedom through reparations to its colonizers and geopolitical sanctions, with impacts continuing to this day.

Canada has been part of that history. For far too long, Canada and other countries have taken it upon themselves to decide what happens in Haiti, when it is, of course, Haitians who should decide and it is their voices we should be listening to. It is crucial that we are discerning about which Haitian voices we seek out. Is it the voices of the powerful minority or of the vulnerable majority?

I say this to be clear that while I am speaking in my capacity with Partners in Health Canada, a global health and social justice NGO, I do so only with the approval and support of our Haitian colleagues with Zanmi Lasante, as Partners In Health is known in Haiti.

Zanmi Lasante is today the largest health care provider in the country, after the ministry of health, supporting 17 health facilities across two of Haiti's most vulnerable districts and serving a tertiary catchment area of 3.9 million people. Zanmi Lasante's 6,500-person Haitian staff are of and from the communities they serve, working to support the realization of social and economic rights for their communities and their country.

The central crisis that our Haitian colleagues are dealing with today amidst an unprecedented fuel crisis, gang violence, kidnappings, individual and societal trauma, widespread hunger and now the re-emergence of cholera is the prospect of not being able to keep health facilities and hospitals we support open. Our colleagues are rightly proud that all 17 facilities have stayed open to serve patients, when up to 75% of facilities in the country are not able to offer even the most basic care.

One of those facilities still open is the University Hospital of Mirebalais, a 300-bed teaching hospital built by Partners in Health after the 2010 earthquake. The hospital generators need 23,000 gallons of fuel a month to keep functioning. When the main fuel terminal in Port-au-Prince was blocked by gangs, Zanmi Lasante staff walked with mules through the mountains to the Dominican Republic, six hours each way, to get fuel. They did some 10 to 15 trips this way. At other times, they risked their lives to find fuel elsewhere.

There are two Canada-funded projects of note. One has treated more than 4,300 children for severe and moderate acute malnutrition. Another has provided support for more than 1,600 survivors of gender-based violence, while building links between the health, police and justice sectors, and community and women's groups. They adapted their programming but never stopped operating, in spite of today's challenges.

Cholera is now at the forefront of everyone's mind, with more than 13,000 suspected and confirmed cases to date, and 280 deaths. These are severe undercounts, for sure. Children under five are most at risk, because malnutrition weakens their young immune systems, making them more vulnerable to contaminated water and poor sanitation and therefore more vulnerable to disease and death.

There is a global shortage of the cholera vaccine because there is limited funding for a disease that overwhelmingly affects poor countries, but Zanmi Lasante staff know how to respond, even in a crisis. They are preparing to lead a vaccination campaign for 105,000 people in Mirebalais, with initial doses expected to arrive next week.

Haitians are doing their best in an impossible situation. Our ask is that during this crisis and after it, we find, listen to and support deep-rooted Haitian organizations working for the betterment of their country, and that we do so with what our late co-founder Dr. Paul Farmer called “pragmatic solidarity”. In other words, we do it with material support that addresses material needs.

We have urgent needs for fuel and storage capacity. We need a new warehouse so that supplies are closer to patients and less vulnerable to road blockages. We urgently need medical supplies and additional staff for cholera, and we need to invest further in solar capacity across our facilities to reduce our dependence on fuel for the long term. Canada can help in all of these areas right now.

Just as critically, “pragmatic solidarity” means progressive development and international assistance policies that will allow Haiti to build stronger health systems and allow Haitians and the global community to respond better during times of crisis.

I'd be pleased to provide some examples in the question period.

Thank you again for this opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you for that, Mr. Brender.

We will continue with Mr. Gédéon Jean.

You have five minutes, please.

Your connection might not be....

We're going to continue on to our next witness due to connection issues.

We'll have the International Crisis Group, please, for five minutes.

[Dr. Renata Segura, Associate Director, Latin America and Caribbean, International Crisis Group]

Thank you very much.

For clarification, I will be doing the five-minute intervention. My colleague can join us during the question period.

Thank you for having invited us this morning to join you in the proceedings. All protocols are observed.

The International Crisis Group has been working in Haiti for many years. As a conflict prevention organization that bases its analysis in fieldwork and extensive interviews with Haitian actors, we hope to reflect the multitude of opinions that we have encountered in our work there.

I would like to focus my remarks today both on the merits and the obstacles of the request that foreign armed troops be sent to Haiti. Interim Prime Minister Ariel Henry has said that he needs help combatting the violent gangs that are terrorizing civilian populations in Port-au-Prince and beyond.

The UN Secretary-General, after sending a needs-assessment mission, agrees that this kind of intervention is necessary. His proposal to the Security Council includes two stages. First, a rapid-action task force would arrive in Haiti to help create humanitarian corridors to guarantee that there is safe passage of basic goods to the communities that need them. He then outlines some options for the medium term following withdrawal of the rapid-intervention force.

The first reaction of many Haitians to this proposal was overwhelmingly negative, and with good reasons: Haiti has suffered the consequences of detrimental colonial interventions throughout its entire history.

We understand and share the demands and concerns that are behind the call for a Haitian-led solution, but, as our recent visit to Haiti and many conversations in previous months have shown, the situation there is increasingly dramatic, and inaction might not necessarily be the best course of action.

The war led by gangs has not only resulted in murder, kidnappings and the strategic use of sexual violence to control the population; the gangs' control of ports, markets and roads has also limited access to fuel, food, water and medical services. Now the fast spread of cholera threatens to kill many more.

Our trip to Haiti, however, showed us something else. Many of the people we spoke to, particularly those who live in areas under gang control, called for international help. Many of these people spoke reluctantly. They did not want us to think that they support the government or that they are not patriots. They are also not blind to the difficulties a mission will face, but they see no other option. In the words of a man we spoke to in Port-au-Prince: “We are no fools. An armed intervention will not solve the situation, but to stop the spiral of violence, a multinational force is needed.” These voices are not heard as frequently or as loudly, but they are certainly very much part of the conversation taking place in Haiti today.

The merits of sending troops, however, cannot be the only consideration in moving forward. It is important to understand that the political context will determine the chances for this force to succeed. Without a broad agreement among political and social forces in Haiti, these foreign troops could end up working to strengthen the mandate of Prime Minister Henry, which is widely disliked among the population, and it could end up making the political crisis even worse.

Another danger is that without such an agreement, if Prime Minister Henry ends up leaving power, the troops could find themselves working for a new government that does not welcome them.

This is why it is crucial that Haitians come together in a national dialogue of sorts to determine if they want the arrival of these troops, and if so, what exactly their mandate would be. Ideally, that agreement would also design a transitional government that is seen by all Haitians as legitimate and that can start the process of reconstructing the state, providing its citizens with much-needed access to services and rebuilding the electoral system so that a free and fair vote can take place in the future.

The content of that agreement is for Haitians to decide, although the international community must stand ready to serve as facilitator or mediator if that would be helpful to the process.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you for your testimony, Ms. Segura.

We'll now continue with our next witness.

From the Fédération protestante d'Haïti, we have Jean Duré for five minutes, please.

[Jean Kisomair Dure, Pastor, Protestant Federation of Haiti]

Good morning, members of the House of Commons.

The Protestant Federation of Haiti and the Haitian people thank you for this opportunity to examine the distressing situation that now endangers the lives of hundreds of thousands of Haitians.

For many years now, Haiti has existed at the centre of a maze in which efforts to preserve human dignity have yet to achieve their objective. The poverty in which Haiti's population of some 12 million inhabitants lives is infertile ground for progress in the human rights field.

According to the most recent Human Development Report, Haiti ranks 163rd out of 191 countries with a human development index of 0.535. According to data published by the World Bank, its infant mortality rate is 47 per 1,000 live births and its literacy rate is 62%. In addition, it is estimated that more than 6 million Haitians live below the poverty line and that more than 2.5 million have fallen below the extreme poverty threshold.

Despite the fact that Haiti ranks last in the Americas based on development indicators, it is in the midst of a political crisis that only exacerbates its situation.

As regards the right to justice, we have been witnessing the collapse of the country's legal system for more than 10 years. Most of Haiti's courts do not operate. Thugs have taken control of the courthouse premises in Port‑au‑Prince, contending that they paid for the release of their gang members, but that they are still being detained.

A document entitled, “N ap Mouri”, which means, “We are dying”, published by the human rights service of the United Nations Integrated Office in Haiti, has focused on the significant proportion of pre-trial detainees. No progress in this area has been made in the past 25 years. As of June 1, 2021, more than 82% of the overall prison population in Haiti had not been tried, and most were being unjustly detained.

As for the right to education, the state has access to only 15% of primary-level schools. Nearly 3,000 children live in the streets of the capital city, suffering all kinds of discrimination and humiliation. Some have had to leave their homes at a very young age.

With regard to the right to health, Haiti has an average of 5.9 physicians or nurses per 10,000 inhabitants. There is 0.7 hospital bed for every 1,000 inhabitants. Many Haitians living near the border seek health care in the Dominican Republic, which virtually hunts Haitians with persistence and hatred. In most rural areas, pregnant women give birth at home without the assistance of qualified medical personnel. No health or social programs are available to them.

As regards the right to life, the number of armed gangs is increasing across the country, particularly in the Département de l'Ouest. They are taking control of certain strategic areas, isolating the capital from the major provincial cities. According to an article published by AlterPresse on July 6, more than 550 murders were committed in the capital from January to June of this year. Freedom of movement is undermined by recurring acts of kidnapping and forcible confinement, which have consequences for all social classes.

Many families that have been dispossessed of their property are scattered around lawless zones. Church properties have been taken hostage. In Bel-Air, for example, two guards at one of the temples of the Nazarene Mission were shot dead in a cowardly incident by faithless and lawless thugs. In Bolosse, the premises of the UEBH Baptist mission, the Collège évangélique Maranatha and the Séminaire de théologie évangélique de Port‑au‑Prince have been abandoned to the gangs. The established authorities have made no attempt to put a stop to this situation, while the thugs happily post their fees on social media.

Hyperinflation is setting in, and the right of the vulnerable social classes to food and housing is being trampled. With growing concern in the midst of an unprecedented crisis in which the health system is failing, the Haitian population feels subjected to an inhumane form of oppression from which it has no means of escape.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Mr. Duré, I would ask you please to conclude your presentation because we also have to hear the final witness.

[Jean Kisomair Dure]

All in all, the struggle for the emergence of the rule of law in Haiti is unending. The Protestant Federation of Haiti is committed to that struggle until we emerge victorious and the good triumphs in the faith. The darkness must be banished for the welfare of the Haitian people.

We wish to express our satisfaction with the most recent sanctions that Canada has imposed on those who support the thugs. We invite the friendly nations, Canada in particular, to help Haiti reinforce its national police force and army and to work with the health sectors of civil society toward the emergence of new leadership and home-grown development.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Duré.

We will now hear from the final witness.

Mr. Jean, we will try to hear your testimony despite the technical difficulties. If your connection is poor, we will ask you to switch off your camera.

We're going to see how this works.

Mr. Jean, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Gédéon Jean, Chief Executive Officer, Centre d’analyse et de recherche en droits de l’homme]

Ladies and gentlemen, members of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights, Haiti is at the brink. This glaring reality commands our present government, which acts for the state, to discharge its obligation to honour, protect and assert human rights. The situation also calls for the international community to intervene on the principle that it has a responsibility to protect and for civil society to play its elite role.

I am going to discuss certain key indicators regarding the violation of the right to life, security and protection of the physical integrity of the person.

First, let's talk about homicide. From January to November of this year, the Centre d'analyse et de recherche en droits de l'homme has already recorded at least 1,192 deaths attributable to insecurity. Some 70% of those deaths occurred in metropolitan Port‑au‑Prince. Since November 2018, a series of killings has occurred in disadvantaged areas, particularly La Saline, Cité Soleil, Martissant, Bel-Air and Source Matelas.

As for kidnappings, the Cellule d'observation de la criminalité of the Centre d'analyse et de recherche en droits de l'homme has recorded 755 kidnappings from January to September of this year, 57 of which involved foreigners. Most of the victims were tortured. Women are subjected to gang rapes and other inhumane and degrading treatment.

With regard to gangs, 60% of Haitian territory is controlled by gangs, which are officially organized as two major federations: the G9 an Fanmi e Alye and the GPEP coalition. Some 200 armed groups are active in Haiti, most of which are located in metropolitan Port‑au‑Prince. One may well wonder if they are becoming a kind of proto-state like ISIS, the armed Islamic State group in Syria. The G9 group's nearly two-month hostage-taking at the Varreux oil terminal, which caused a humanitarian crisis and led to the virtually total shutdown of the country, is a clear illustration of that.

I will now discuss the violation of socioeconomic rights.

Prices of consumer goods have doubled in one year in a context in which more than 60% of the population live in abject poverty. This indicator, among many others, of course, affords an understanding of the situation of the half of the population living with chronic food insecurity. In addition, inflation soared 38.7% in September, a monthly rate of 8.2%.

As regards the right to education, to date, 47% of schools are still closed despite the fact that the blockade of the Varreux oil terminal has been lifted. In overall terms, this situation concerns the disadvantaged areas of Cité Soleil, Martissant, Croix-des-Bouquets, downtown Port‑au‑Prince, Bas-Delmas and others, which are generally dominated by the gangs.

Furthermore, the resurgent cholera epidemic has further restricted the right to health. Some 182 institutional deaths and 99 community deaths were reported on December 5 of this year. According to the ministry of public health and population, there have been 1,177 confirmed cases out of a total of 13,454 suspicious cases.

Now let's consider the rule of law.

With regard to governance, Haiti has removed itself from the democratic process and the rule of law. The Haitian parliament has been dysfunctional since January 13 of this year. Since Haiti's president was assassinated on July 7, 2021, the country has been governed by Prime Minister Ariel Henry, who performs the twofold executive role of president and prime minister.

In addition, Haitian justice, which is plagued by corruption and subjugated by successive executive authorities, has been dysfunctional since 2018, particularly as a result of waves of strikes by judges, bailiffs, government commissioners and others. Widespread insecurity has also resulted in the abandonment of buildings housing the country's courts. The Palais de justice de Port‑au‑Prince was abandoned and then taken over by a gang called 5 secondes. This is symptomatic of the glaring reality that currently predominates in Haiti.

Justice is now dysfunctional in law because the Cour de cassation, the highest judicial authority, is dysfunctional. It has only 3 of its 12 Judges.

The rate of prolonged preventive detention in Haiti is approximately 85%. Since January of this year, more than 100 deaths in prisons and detention centres have been reported. Those deaths were due to a lack of health care, food shortages and other degrading treatment. Most correctional centres, including the national penitentiary, Jacmel civilian prison and the Miragoâne correctional centre, resemble the concentration camps of the Nazis and other similar regimes.

As for the Police nationale d'Haïti, although its efforts are visible and quantifiable, it can't always contain the gangs, which are equipped with sophisticated weapons, quantities of ammunition, money and intelligence capabilities. The gangs are supported by policies and personalities from the private and other sectors. The national police don't have the material, technological or financial resources or the necessary training to contain the gangs.

In conclusion, according to the Centre d'analyse et de recherche en droits de l'homme, there needs to be a paradigm shift in cooperation with Haiti in order for it to achieve specific and sustainable results that actually assist in constructing the rule of law and democracy, in addition to providing appropriate responses to the multidimensional humanitarian crisis currently raging in Haiti.

We urgently need an international force—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

We'll continue with our questions and answers. You'll have the chance to continue your thoughts.

We're going to start with Mr. Aboultaif for seven minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you very much.

We've heard testimonies that shed light on the situation there. I'm hearing from Ms. Clesca, Mr. Brender and others is that military intervention is not a favourable solution. We have the gangs on one side, and the last witness referred to the gangs as being similar to the situation that happened in Syria, and we know how that ended up.

There is also the church. The church seems to be the only properly functioning entity out there. You don't support outside intervention and you don't think military intervention is a solution. With such a complicated situation, at all levels, do you believe the church can play a role in solving the problem in the country?

[Monique Clesca]

Thank you very much.

We do. As a matter of fact, the Commission pour la recherche d'une solution haïtienne à la crise, which I am honoured to be a member of and which is included in the Bureau de suivi de l'accord de Montana, includes the voodoo religion and the Episcopal church. The Fédération protestante d'Haïti was in it for quite a long time. It was in for over a year and a half, practically, and then left a few months ago.

We have done consistent, systematic outreach with the Catholic church. What we have been told by the Catholic church, when we met with them at different times, is that they follow what we're doing, but they do not want to be directly involved in finding a solution. They had, in a way, been burnt already. They already tried to do that, and the outcome was not favourable for them.

We believe churches—whether they're Catholic, Protestant, Episcopalian or of the voodoo religion—are important to the solution. Some of them are already part of the commission and the Montana accord. The question would be, can the Catholic church be a broker? Can it come in as a supporter or mediator? We do not know.

We insist it is extremely important that the different denominations be part of the solution. Some already are part of the greater consensus. What role the Catholic church will decide to play.... That's the one that is absent, along with the Fédération protestante d'Haïti. We aim to start re-dialoguing with them. We believe they are essential.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Pastor Dure, do you believe that the international community is convinced that the church can probably play the role of being the broker or of leading the mission to provide the solution for the situation there?

[Jean Kisomair Dure]

The Protestant church, in particular, has previously proposed, for the community and political actors, that a commission be established that can assist in negotiations designed to find peaceful political solutions to the crisis.

In our view, we need to think about how to resolve this crisis through mediation and also about the aftermath of the crisis. There have been transitions and elections in the past, but they didn't alter the situation.

That's why the Montana Accord mentions a national conference that could help bring all the players together to build something solid so that Haiti can permanently emerge from this crisis.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Jean, the 200 arms and gang groups are similar to what happened in Syria. We know that in Syria those people or those gang groups were supported by the surrounding neighbourhoods and a lot of intervention from other countries. Who is behind the gang groups in Haiti?

[Gédéon Jean]

There are a lot of actors behind these armed groups: politicians, private-sector personalities and people from civil society. Consequently, the situation in Haiti is extremely complicated.

If we really want to improve the situation, there has to be a force supporting the Police nationale d'Haïti. The police are currently underequipped; they are a third-rate police force that can't really contain the gangs.

The present situation is really troubling: women are being raped, kidnappings have reached truly disturbing proportions, and we've seen a lot of violence-related deaths. In the circumstances, apart from political issues and negotiations, we really need to establish a force that's equal to the situation. From that standpoint, I think this is the lot of the vast majority of the population that's suffering. We need an international force to assist the Police nationale d'Haïti so it can actually intervene. This is a matter of security, survival and human rights.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Arnold Viersen]

Thank you.

We'll now go to MP Dubourg for seven minutes.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To begin with, I want to welcome all the witnesses who are with us this morning. I am very pleased to see them. We need to hear the views of the witnesses in order to know how we can help Haiti and the Haitian people. It's through them that we can find potential solutions.

My questions are for the witnesses in the order in which they gave their opening statements. Consequently, I'll go first to the representative of the Bureau de suivi de l'Accord de Montana.

Ms. Clesca, I want to congratulate you on the efforts that Haitians have made to find a solution. I understand that the situation is extremely complex and difficult.

With regard to the Montana group, you talked about meetings with a lot of people. Why has that group been unable to align the Montana Accord with the September 11 agreement, for example?

[Monique Clesca]

Being Haitian today means participating in the solidarity among Haitians; it means taking part in a permanent resistance at the individual and organizational levels, and it especially means telling ourselves that we can do it, and if we say we can do it, that means we must try.

The Montana group tried to expand the consensus, and the first thing that happened was that we were able to meet with the allies of Ariel Henry who signed the September 11 agreement. It has to be said: the September 11 agreement is the allied agreement of Ariel Henry, who is with the PHTK.

Mr. Henry informed us at one point that he had neither the authority nor the authorization to negotiate. We think that's clear. If the prime minister, who is illegitimate but who made his September 11 alliance, said he had neither the authority nor the authorization to negotiate, it won't be possible to do so until he manages to find that authority and that authorization to negotiate.

However, I'm going to venture a little further.

Mr. Henry has been in power for nearly 15 months now. Contrary to what Mr. Jean said, I want to point out that Mr. Henry isn't the president of Haiti. He is its prime minister, even though he is illegitimate; I acknowledge that. However, he isn't the president of Haiti, as Mr. Jean said.

At any event, Mr. Henry's record is the worst of all records. The largest massacres in Haiti, which have occurred recently, were committed under his governance. We can see none of the things that he nevertheless should have done. He could have opened dialogues with the public, but he didn't. He could have established emergency areas, but he didn't. He did nothing.

In our view today, Mr. Henry is part of the past. We can negotiate his exit with him, but we can't sit down and negotiate an agreement for him. The task ahead is to determine how he will leave so that a transitional government can be established.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Clesca. As you know, we don't have much time.

[Monique Clesca]

I understand.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I would like to take up another topic in what little time I have left.

Earlier you said that this major Montana coalition that you formed included voodooists, Protestants and Catholics. That being said, as you know, our committee is mainly examining and studying human rights in Haiti. As we all know, abortion is illegal in Haiti. Section 262 of Haiti's criminal code provides that women may not choose to undergo an abortion.

How do you deal with that situation in the Montana group?