Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 9th, 2022

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Arnold Viersen]

Thank you.

Now we have five minutes for Mr. Aboultaif.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks again to the witnesses.

Haiti has 200 years of independence, but the situation continues to be crippling and to be deteriorating further. We've heard a big “no” to military intervention.

In the meantime, we've heard from Ms. Segura that a mandate is needed for an intervention or for outside military presence. She also spoke about detrimental colonialism, which is something that has been repeated several times.

It looks like we're in front of a solution that has to be a Haitian solution, that has to be from within the country, whether it's the church, whether it's different groups or whether it's civil society. If we're in front of that, what does that solution look like in the eyes of the witnesses?

I will ask Ms. Segura that question, and I would also appreciate having a comment from Ms. Clesca too.

[Dr. Renata Segura]

Thank you.

From the Crisis Group perspective, what is indispensable is an agreement, a national dialogue of the sort that Ms. Clesca was proposing. We think that if there is a very defined mandate for what the troops should do and what they should not do, and if the focus is on bringing humanitarian access to the communities, only if there is a political agreement ahead of it will it be successful.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Do you believe that this mandate has been discussed at this point since Canada has announced that it's willing to intervene?

[Dr. Renata Segura]

No. I don't think the Haitian mandate is there yet, and without it, we would not advise sending troops.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Ms. Clesca, would you like to comment on the question?

[Monique Clesca]

Yesterday we met with the Canadian delegation that is in Haiti right now. They said essentially what I'm saying: We are against a military intervention in Haiti; however, we know that we need assistance. With the state of things in Haiti right now, we cannot have any kind of long-term assistance being negotiated. Practically everything is at a standstill.

We have been advocating the accord of August 30 for a larger consensus. To us, a larger consensus means, as I mentioned, talking to the different church denominations and the private sector. We've had over 20 meetings with different elements of the private sector, with the different groups, etc.

Also, in terms of the diaspora—Haitian Canadians, Haitian Americans, Haitian French—we have had meetings with them. They are part of the accord, but we are also reaching out so there can be more who are part of it.

We believe that we need to broaden the consensus. We also have a road map. We have gone a little bit further in terms of the road map with elections, la conférence nationale, humanitarian assistance, security assistance and redressement économique. We believe these are important things to move forward with immediately.

We are, I believe, very clear that this is what we are looking for—a larger consensus, a transition of two years, and that we negotiate with Monsieur Henry how and when he will leave. He is no longer part of the solution. In fact, he is part of the problem with lots of the things that are going on with the gangs today.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you. That's a great road map.

What's left for Canada to do, for example, in this whole picture? Is it a direct financial contribution? What is it? How do you see Canada's role, specifically, in being most effective?

[Monique Clesca]

Canada has been and will continue to be an important partner of Haiti, I think.

For example, in the area of gender, one of the big issues on the table is sexual violence with the gangs, and in general in Haiti. I think Canada has been a leader in that area, not only recently but for a long time. Canada has set the model in terms of that, and I think that ought to certainly continue. Linked with that also is a lot of early sexual debuting. This also brings about one of the human rights violations—a lot of forced teenage pregnancies. I think all of that is part of the package.

Another area, in terms of security—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you. My apologies. We have reached the time limit for this.

[Monique Clesca]

I'm sorry. Can I finish my phrase?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Yes. Go ahead, please. Finish it.

[Monique Clesca]

Canada, France and the United States are major donors in terms of security. I believe that Canada could play a leadership role in that. Each works independently. Why not have a partner in terms of security? Canada can actually play a leadership role in that, as it did—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you. We need to continue. There is strict timing.

[Monique Clesca]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This study is so important for us as we go forward.

Ms. Clesca, as you said, Canada, the United States and various other foreign powers have intervened in Haiti for years, with the results that we can see today.

You told us you are absolutely opposed to military interference. However, many witnesses have told us that the police and security forces in Haiti must be helped. How do we do that? How can we help the various security forces in Haiti to maintain security without intervening militarily?

[Monique Clesca]

I think there's a major difference among the possible scenarios. On the one hand, Mr. Henry is requesting military intervention and wants to see troops landing and intervening in Haiti. On the other hand, there could be a transitional government, in which case we would sit down together to determine what our security needs are, needs that the police would define.

As I said, we want the national police to be reinforced; we want technical, financial, technological and logistical assistance, but that has to be defined with a government that's legitimate, a transitional government, to enable us to go forward. Mr. Henry no longer has any legitimacy. The government there is working with gangs and other groups. What can we do now? That's the problem.

Our position on this is clear: Mr. Henry can't do it. Our future can't play out like that. Yes, we want assistance, but it has to be defined under a cooperative framework.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I definitely understand that it has to be done without Mr. Henry. I think that's quite clear.

However, as you said earlier, there are corruption issues. Are 100% of Haitian police force members pure as the driven snow? Perhaps there's a problem that has to be solved even before we help the security forces.

Or do you think that, since we're in the midst of an emergency, no one will look at that later?

[Monique Clesca]

I think the police have officers who are very well trained, have extensive experience and could definitely provide a better answer to that question than I can.

From what I've read and heard during discussions we've had with security experts, there are definitely problems with the police. For example, there are staffing problems. Many police officers have recently been killed or assassinated. Some have also left the force. Police officers are very poorly paid, whereas they put their lives in danger.

As I said in my statement, some police officers are also involved in the gangs. Some of them have been arrested. So audits have to be done. It's also been suggested to us that police uniforms should perhaps be changed.

Yes, there are problems; we are aware of them, and, yes, we need assistance. However, the solution isn't for you to come in with your troops in an interventionist manner.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

We absolutely agree on that point.

It's just that I don't have a lot of time, and I'm trying to be as pragmatic as possible. I know that the committee's excellent analysts, who will help us draft our report, are working very intelligently and pragmatically as well.

I think it's been quite clear from the start: you're telling us you don't want direct military intervention. Instead you want material assistance for your security forces.

Now, if there are corrupt members among your security forces, or members who aren't entirely clean, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do you understand my question? It's important. Where do we start? Do we immediately provide direct material assistance to your police forces before resolving the corruption issues, or do we first solve the corruption problems and then assist the police forces?

We'll have to prepare recommendations at some point, which is precisely why I'm asking you the question.

Other witnesses may also want to answer that question.

[Monique Clesca]

I'll answer it briefly to give the other witnesses a chance to respond.

Security experts have told us that two things will have to be done. First, there will have to be an audit process. I discussed that earlier. I assume that has already started. We will also have to depoliticize the police. That was a basic featured of the Jovenel Moïse regime. We now have a new director, Mr. Elbe. I can't tell you what he's doing, but we feel there's less politicization, although there may still be some. This is something that's important.

When we talk about technical assistance, we aren't referring solely to equipment. It can also include men and women who provide training or their assistance. We're open to that.

What I'm saying is that this will have to be defined in an agreement between legitimate states.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. Clesca.

We'll have Madam McPherson for five minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

I just want to take a moment. I noticed that some of the other witnesses were interested in speaking to that last point. Mr. Da Rin, I believe you had your hand up.