Evidence of meeting #24 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinese.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:15 p.m.
Director, Tibet Action Institute
Absolutely. We couldn't agree more. Actually, in December, the U.S. State Department sanctioned two officials in Tibet. I can send you the info. That was hugely momentous for Tibetans. It's new, and a lot has been going on in the world, so I don't think many people know about it.
The other thing is that we can absolutely send you some information about those involved.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
The committee would appreciate those names, I assume, to potentially include in a report.
Thank you, Chair.
2:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sameer Zuberi
Thank you, Mr. Genuis.
We'll continue now for five minutes with Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.
2:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will come back a bit to what my colleague Mr. Genuis just said.
We are here, on the committee, to build a case and gather as much evidence as possible so that we, as parliamentarians, can take action or at least demand certain measures from our Parliament or the Canadian government.
Could you give us information you haven’t shared with us yet on incidents related to these boarding schools? Could you send it to us so we can include it in the report?
My question is for all the witnesses at the meeting today.
Ms. Richardson, I see you nodding. Would you like to add anything?
2:15 p.m.
China Director, Human Rights Watch
We would be happy to share the details of all of the reporting we've done on educational policy, abuses related to it and sinicization more broadly across the region, if that would be helpful.
Many of those documents also include—as Mr. Genuis was asking—the names of the relevant officials. Lhadon and others may wish to elaborate on that specifically with respect to the boarding schools.
2:15 p.m.
Academic Researcher and Educational Sociologist, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
Of course we know who is the architect of that program. There's a certain name I've known personally for many years. I can provide his name.
Also, there are institutions settled by central China, the Government of China in Lanzhou. They are responsible for doing the research on the entire western minority area, which largely covers Xinjiang and Tibet.
2:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Lo.
We will take anything you can give us. We are lucky to have committee analysts who are extremely efficient and who will help us create a solid report.
Like most of my parliamentary colleagues who are here today, I worked on the Uighur issue, and the Chinese government has a similar modus operandi towards Tibetans. We have seen worsening human rights violations in China since Xi Jinping came to power.
I want to discuss this further because we are parliamentarians, and that makes him one of our counterparts at the international level. If we can gather evidence proving that human rights violations have worsened since Xi Jinping came to power, it would certainly help us shift into action.
Is it accurate to say that, under Xi Jinping, human rights violations have worsened? Do you have any examples to give us to strengthen our case?
Ms. Tethong, I saw you react.
2:20 p.m.
Director, Tibet Action Institute
Yes, absolutely.
We have seen under Xi Jinping a crackdown that people liken to the Cultural Revolution. Some Tibetan cultural practices and things used to be tolerated or seemingly harmless, such as hanging prayer flags or building Tibetan Buddhist statues. Now they are being destroyed. People are being forbidden from engaging in really simple Buddhist practices with seemingly no political implications at all.
Also, there are restrictions on the monasteries and the process of recognizing reincarnated lamas. Lineages that go back generations are just being cut and broken. It's being done from every angle. There's also the blocking and banning of people—using surveillance—from going into the monastery or observing really important Tibetan Buddhist traditions, holidays or occasions. I can't even imagine not being able to go and do the circumambulation of the temple to build merit. Even for these very simple things, there is a total crackdown under him.
2:20 p.m.
Academic Researcher and Educational Sociologist, As an Individual
Can I add something?
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sameer Zuberi
You only have three seconds left, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe.
Please, Dr. Gyal Lo, go ahead.
2:20 p.m.
Academic Researcher and Educational Sociologist, As an Individual
In Xi Jinping's first term, he did not do that much, but as soon as he stabilized his second term, he dramatically increased this high nationalism combined with the domination of the Communist Party, which was increasingly put into the curriculum. That's one example.
The other concrete example I can give you is that in 2015, when I was sitting with Chinese scholars, they would say, “We can give generous autonomy to the TR, but the entire Tibetan region is too big.” At the time we could talk about this, but in 2018, those Chinese scholars started detaching themselves from these long-term friendships with Tibetan scholars and other minority scholars. The entire social atmosphere was turned into high nationalism in society.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sameer Zuberi
Thank you for that.
Next, we go to Ms. McPherson.
You have five minutes, please.
2:20 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much for all of this. It's given me certainly an awful lot to think about.
I would go back, though, if I could, to Ms. Tethong, to see if there's a response to that question. We did talk about it a bit, about how we support Tibet also within the context. Could you perhaps go ahead with that?
2:20 p.m.
Director, Tibet Action Institute
Sure. I think I was saying that the Chinese government would love nothing more than for all of these issues to be addressed separately and in silos.
There are so many linkages, and there is a way that I think we need to.... The Tibetans, Uighurs and Hong Kongers are all working together within our limited capacities, and I think it would be great if we had more government advocacy and support for us, just in looking at our fights together and how they relate, and how Beijing could be addressed or made to answer for the way they're treating all of us, because then I think it's more powerful also.
I would say that it is really important at the same time to.... What I was saying was that Tibet gets a mention these days, and I understand that it's because of a lack of information, but I also think that there's an added responsibility. If you look at the Uighurs and you look at the Tibetans over the years, in a way what they're doing to the Uighurs is because they didn't have attention or support, and because of the war on terror and all the reasons we know. Tibet had that, so China intentionally set a plan to end that global support and that spotlight and to turn it off.
I feel that we have an added responsibility now to work harder to see the whole picture. That's I guess what I would say. Despite information blackouts and lockdown, Tibetans have been risking their lives to get information out. There is quite a bit. It's harder to see as clearly, but I feel that we need to work harder to meet the level to which China has tried to obscure the picture. They're doing it not because things are getting better, but because they're getting worse. I think that's what next for the other places—I hate to say it.
How long before it's silence that's coming from East Turkestan? How long before it's silence that's coming from Hong Kong? What has happened to Chinese rights defenders and faith communities in China? This is not just about all of us and our faith being interlinked. It's about the international community too. I think we know that.
2:25 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
It's absolutely terrifying. It brings to mind for me that we did see all the trouble the United Nations had in getting information about what was happening with the Uighurs.
Do any of you even have faith that the international community can get information? Even if we did get our United Nations examination, would they even have that access? Would we be able to get the information that we would require?
I see you nodding, Ms. Richardson. Perhaps you'd like to start.
2:25 p.m.
China Director, Human Rights Watch
Sure. I think the key is for other governments, and particularly democracies, to match and exceed the ambition, the discipline and the resources that Xi Jinping is devoting to destroying human rights inside and outside the country.
The UN efforts matter partly because they are about holding the Chinese government to the same standards that you, presumably, would want the Canadian government to be held to and that governments have freely agreed to. Nobody made the Chinese government sign human rights treaties. It signed them itself. That's an agreement to play by the same rules and to endure the same degree of scrutiny.
If you can't have a conversation at the Human Rights Council about atrocity crimes being committed against Uighurs, I'm not quite sure what the point of the institution is. Do we want to give up on the institution? No. We want to make it function.
However, there's also the reality that, in the here and now, there are communities that need relief. That's where I think of some of the domestic measures that the Canadian government could lead on....
As Professor Gyal Lo, Chemi and Lhadon have mentioned, I think there's a lot of room to do everything from language and cultural preservation and supporting the kinds of efforts that are community-driven, to making sure Canadian civil servants who work on issues across China aren't offered the opportunity to learn only Chinese, but to learn Tibetan, Uighur, Mongolian or Cantonese. I think these all matter. However, if democracies don't come together soon to push back against a very concerning, clear plan of Xi's, the window is closing somewhat to do that.
I'm on sabbatical, so I'm not supposed to say these things out loud right now, but I find it highly disconcerting to see that, for example, an official from the Uighur region is being received in the U.K. and in Brussels. I find it very disturbing that the EU is going ahead with another round of a bilateral human rights dialogue with the Chinese government. This is a government that should be investigated and prosecuted.
Is there evidence out there to be had, and can it be gathered in the service of, for example, the OHCHR report about the Uighur region? Absolutely. Support that. Give it the political support, give it the financial support and give it the human resources it needs.
There's a lot of information out there to be assembled with a view not just toward documentation but toward accountability. People should be held accountable for these crimes.
2:25 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Absolutely, and I feel like one of the issues we have is that this is a multipolar world, and other countries are looking at the way that China is silencing its own population. That is a big risk.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sameer Zuberi
Thank you, Ms. McPherson.
We're going to have two shorter rounds now for three and a half minutes. We're going to start with Mr. Virani, and then move to Mr. Genuis and continue.
Mr. Virani, you have three and a half minutes.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
Thank you.
I want to make sure I heard a couple of things clearly. I want to start by reading something and asking Dr. Gyal Lo if it sounds consistent.
This is a document from the UN report of the special rapporteurs, dated November 11, 2022, which describes:
Students are restricted in following traditional Tibetan religious practices connecting them back to their families and communities. There are very few Tibetan teachers in such schools, and the majority of teachers are Han. Teachers only speak in Mandarin Chinese and conduct all educational activities in Mandarin....
It continues:
Residential schooling of Tibetan children also produces deep and serious negative psychological and social impacts on such children, including the loss of family connections, apathy, anxiety, interaction disorders, feelings of loneliness, isolation, alienation, homesickness, and other forms of physical or emotional distress.
Based on your on-the-ground experience and understanding, having visited those 50 schools, would you say that's an accurate characterization of what you've seen?
2:30 p.m.
Academic Researcher and Educational Sociologist, As an Individual
That's accurate.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
Thank you, Dr. Gyal Lo.
Sophie Richardson, I want to make sure I'm crystal clear on this. You said in your opening statement that compulsory kindergarten can start as early as three. Is that correct?
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I'm quite taken by this aspect of the sanctions movement, because—as it was rightly pointed out—we have issued some sanctions vis-à-vis Chinese leaders who were responsible for discrimination in Xinjiang. I'd echo some of the concerns you've heard from others about wanting the list of specific names. I think that's really critical.
Can I ask Lhadon and Ms. Richardson to help me a bit? I'm wearing my lawyer's hat now. I want to understand a bit more about the discriminatory impact. You mentioned a 2010 decision, Ms. Tethong. There was a ruling that schooling needed to be, basically, as local as possible, but in 2015, there was a carve-out that, if you're in a minority, it can be as far away as possible and that's okay.
Ms. Richardson, if you could answer this point about how the Chinese are not only violating international covenants but their own domestic laws, and if you could identify which domestic laws are in violation, it would be helpful for this committee.
It's over to the two of you, Lhadon and then Ms. Richardson.
2:30 p.m.
Director, Tibet Action Institute
Yes. The 2012 State Council decree, I believe it was, was about how education in principle should be local, especially at the youngest stages. That was in 2012, and this very same State Council.... Now, note the timeline of 2015 and Xi Jinping and this whole second-generation ethnic policy stuff that is taking off and his buy-in for that idea. In 2015, there is the State Council decision on ethnic education. I'm getting the name wrong, but the same State Council said that for children of ethnic minorities we should increase boarding school construction and that children of ethnic minorities should live in the school or grow up in the school.
That's the difference here. It's that this is not about education and the ideals of education and universal pre-K and whatever. This is about specific targeted policies for Tibetans, Uighurs and Southern Mongolians, and the idea that bilingual education is one of your mother-tongue language classes in a day is laughable.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sameer Zuberi
Thank you, Ms. Tethong.
We'll continue with our next round.
Mr. Genuis, you have three and a half minutes.