Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by saying, tuchi che. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you, Ms. Richardson, for your contributions as well.

Thank you to the members of this committee and to the chair for facilitating this important meeting and this important study.

In my seven years of representing the community of Parkdale that Ms. Lhamo was mentioning, I've certainly learned a great deal about Tibet and the Tibetan struggle. In my role as chair of Parliamentary Friends of Tibet, I've taken some encouragement at certain times in terms of the way things were heading in terms of government policy and international reaction. This testimony today, however, is quite shocking.

The encouraging parts are things such as launching an Indo-Pacific strategy that specifically mentions Tibetan human rights violations. They are things like the vote that happened in December on relaunching a Sino-Tibetan dialogue that has been stalled since His Holiness gave up political power to the Sikyong. Really, that dialogue process has been moribund for about the last 10 years.

I think that having this study is really critical and I'm glad we're having it, but what I want to know first of all is the impact on the children and also the impact on the parents.

Perhaps, Dr. Gyal Lo, can you tell us very specifically what would happen in the TAR or in any Tibetan majority region if a parent outright tried to refuse sending their kids to either the preschool or the boarding schools for ages six to 18? What are the consequences?

[Dr. Gyal Lo]

The parents have almost no possible way to oppose the policy to send their kids to schools, because they were warned first that if they don't send their kids to boarding preschool, later on they cannot get enrolled for either one, which means that they won't get an education. The second way would be simply to block their names from the government system whereby they get benefits or any welfare from the government. Then, if they still don't send their kids, they send the police to put them in jail.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

In that context, the children would be moved by force. Is that fair?

[Dr. Gyal Lo]

Of course. They need kids for maintaining the schools.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Okay.

Ms. Lhamo referenced the legacy of Canada with respect to residential schools. We're all thinking about the indigenous plight for 150 years in this country. It's a horrific legacy. A lot of that legacy is also about children trying to escape, flee and run, and about children trying to resist.

This question is for perhaps Dr. Gyal Lo, Lhadon Tethong or Sophie Richardson. Is there evidence of children trying to get out of the system and of what happens to them if they do try to resist in the schools?

[Dr. Gyal Lo]

There are two options that are very clear. One option is to bring you back to the school. The other way is to put you into another school that is at a further distance so that you'll never be able to run away.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

They move you even further.

How has this been exacerbated by the rise of the surveillance state under Xi Jinping? I understand that there are two cameras for every human being in the PRC, for example. That is quite overwhelming. How does that impede one's ability to resist or flee in this context?

Perhaps Dr. Richardson can respond, and then Ms. Tethong.

[Dr. Sophie Richardson]

Thank you.

Human Rights Watch has done quite a bit of research about the surveillance state across China and the ability of authorities to monitor virtually any and all electronic communications but also, indeed, to use tools to track people's movement. I think it's fair to say that the Tibetan plateau is awash with this kind of technology. It's deployed in ways that prevent people from being able to communicate or organize.

Perhaps I can add something briefly about the impacts on children and family members. We had people talk to us about the inability of children to communicate with family members once they had really been forced to study entirely in Chinese. The children were not able to read traditional texts, obviously, and they were not able to participate in religious rites. They simply did not have the language comprehension to do so.

Those are some of the ways in which you can so clearly see the destruction to families and to the transmission of knowledge by simply switching out the medium of education.

Lhadon will certainly have more to add to that.

[Lhadon Tethong]

Yes.

We've actually had reports from Tibet, although very limited, about Tibetan students in these schools protesting the crackdown on language and the removal of Tibetan. This has intensified over the last number of years. We try to look into these things, although it's virtually impossible, because the information blackout is so complete.

One thing I would say about the impact on children and families is that we've actually heard from a number of Tibetans who felt they had no other choice but to send their kids and who also felt, “Well, at least if my child learns the Chinese that I didn't, then they will have a better chance, because the world around us is changing so quickly.” However, they later expressed regret when the kids who came home to them were in so many ways different and had grown so apart. It just broke them. It made them feel like they'd made the wrong decision.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Ms. Tethong, perhaps I could go further with you on one issue. You mentioned the discriminatory application of these policies. I recall reading from that longer UN document that, while these schools exist, they're applied to something like 22% of minority children but 78% of Tibetan minority children.

Can you comment on that—the direct application or the overapplication towards Tibetans and what you read in that vis-à-vis the Chinese government's policies?

[Lhadon Tethong]

In the most rural areas of China, where you would think that.... If this is really about what the Chinese will say, which is the challenges of the sparsely populated Tibetan plateau, the topography and how difficult it is to get to school.... In the most rural areas of China, the rate of boarding is around 20% averaged across. There's no comparison.

This is targeting not just Tibetan children, but Uighur and Southern Mongolian children as well. Of course, in East Turkestan—what they try to call the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region—there are different circumstances, because many of those kids' parents are in camps or in detention.

For the Southern Mongolians, they've really fought back against language policies in a way that has helped on some level to delay a bit more.... We don't know all of the details, because it's so difficult to get information, but we know that they are also boarding at a very high rate.

I think Tibet is always next level and, sadly, a little ahead of everyone else. Because of Tibet's political claims to independence and history, and the global support that Tibet has enjoyed, the Chinese government treats Tibet very differently in many ways, and earlier than the other places.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. Tethong.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you now have the floor for seven minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for taking part in the committee’s very important study on this subject.

I want them to know that I am an ally. In fact, I am barred from China, if that gives them any reassurance.

Ms. Tethong, you said that some families regret their decision because they were convinced by the Chinese government, in a somewhat insidious way, to send their children to these boarding schools.

Can you tell me whether a family can refuse to send their child to a boarding school?

If they refuse to do so, are there reprisals, or can they be punished by the government?

[Lhadon Tethong]

Thank you for that question.

There used to be more options, and they've been shrinking steadily every year. Tibetans could send kids to some Tibetan private schools, or the monasteries were running schools for secular education and these kinds of things. The Chinese government has cracked down on all of it.

When I say, “the choice to send them”, some parents some years ago would have had somewhat of a choice between a Tibetan-run school or this school where they're going to get a strong Chinese-language education. In the case when they made that decision for whatever reason, that's what I was talking about. It's that kind of regret.

The consequences really.... One thing that is very clear to us in our research is that for many of the Tibetans who want to resist or who try to resist, they've gotten much better at pressuring people before they even consider getting to the point of not sending.

What parents are doing now—which reminds me of the stories of the residential schools in Canada that I have heard—is moving to urban areas, because there are day schools there. They'll separate the family and move with the child or the children to the urban area so that the kids can go to a day school, or they will live with the four- and five-year-olds. We've heard of nomadic communities taking turns, family by family, going and living near the school—though they can't even see the kids—so that someone from that community is near those kids. They're living in their car all week long.

Those are the kinds of stories we're hearing now.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

We heard that children were practically prohibited from speaking Tibetan. These children are forced to give up their culture and religious practices because they are in these Chinese schools that promote socialism.

What are the repercussions on the children once they've gone through this education imposed on them by the Chinese government?

What's the outcome when a young Tibetan is forced to attend this type of boarding school?

When they come out, are they the same person as when they went in, or have they changed completely?

[Dr. Gyal Lo]

Thank you for your question. This is a key question, I think.

As I mentioned in my statement, after three months they feel like they're becoming a guest and a stranger at home. This is how they pull our kids from their roots—by starting from home.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

We have to be careful when making comparisons. However, there were Indian residential schools in Canada that uprooted children by force, which has been described as cultural genocide. There is now a reconciliation process in place here.

What we are seeing from the Chinese government towards the Tibetan people is cultural genocide.

Would you be prepared to state that?

[Dr. Gyal Lo]

Yes, definitely. This is a clear signal of the cultural genocide, I think.

[Chemi Lhamo]

Under the genocide convention, separating children from their parents is stated as a genocide. Even with the risk of its being a genocide, we, as part of the international community, have an obligation to ensure we intervene and, if need be, punish the perpetrators.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That’s exactly what I was getting at. Canada is a signatory to the genocide convention. As a signatory to this convention, Canada has certain obligations; it’s not just a formality. There are obligations for all signatory countries, and Canada is one of them.

Do you think that Canada is doing enough as a signatory of the 1948 genocide convention?

The convention is clear: where there is even just a risk of genocide, parties must act, punish or prevent.

Do you think Canada is doing enough? If not, what more should it be doing?

[Chemi Lhamo]

We provided the recommendations, but I'm happy to repeat them.

In response to your question, “Do you think Canada is doing enough?”, this is the opportunity to do something. It's been about a year and a half since experts Dr. Gyal Lo and Lhadon-la have been going around the world tirelessly. I know that Lhadon has had to spend time away from her own little ones, running back and forth. She was just in Ottawa. She has had to go on flights that were cancelled.

She is being separated for this very reason. The sacrifice being made is for Canada to step up and take actions to make sure that children are no longer being separated from their families, so we can act on our obligation to intervene.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

You have 20 seconds.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

How should we intervene? That’s the question we should be asking. As a committee, we wholeheartedly support you.

As parliamentarians, what measures do we need to take?

How can we intervene? Taking action is one thing, but how we do it is another.

Ms. Tethong, I think you wanted to answer that.

[Lhadon Tethong]

Yes. I think leadership to raise this issue would be very helpful amongst like-minded nations at the UN. First and foremost, it sounds very basic, but the Chinese government is hiding this policy for a reason and is cutting off the flow of information for a reason. If no one knows it's happening, then there is no problem and no problem means no solution. First and foremost, we need to directly condemn this policy: to bring it out and to put Beijing on notice that the world knows. That's just basic.

Also, I think you will all appreciate the idea that Tibet is often mentioned as Tibet added on to long statements about other things, as in “and Tibet” and “we are concerned about Tibet”. We appreciate the continued concern for Tibet, but I think that to really name specifically the policies and to talk about and look into the question of genocide, it then will become quite clear that what is happening is far beyond just a human rights violation.

That's something that also happens also to us. We get put into a category as if there are these individual violations, but Xi Jinping's approach, especially now, is so apparent. It's a total approach that is designed to eliminate Tibetans in a way that's clearly genocide, and it needs to be addressed in that way.

I think that for Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongolians our issues need to be looked at together. I think Beijing would love nothing more than for us to keep all of this in silos and say that this is an anti-terrorism issue, that this is a separatism issue.... It's just too easy to let them off the hook for the genocidal policies they have towards everyone, especially Tibetans, Uighurs and Southern Mongolians who are not Han.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. Tethong.

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe.