Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

A few times it's been referenced that one way Canadians will process this information is through comparisons to the horrors of residential schools here in Canada. I wonder if anybody wants to reflect a bit more specifically—those who are making that comparison—on what you would identify as the similarities and the differences. Also, how does that shape Canada's positioning in terms of being able to speak specifically to these issues from our own experiences as a nation?

That's for whoever wants to dive into this.

[Lhadon Tethong]

Really quickly, I would say that I think it's really important that we're not trying to say that this is the same thing. The intention of the government, the policy aims at the highest levels, I think are the same—the idea to assimilate or to force assimilation or to commit genocide—but then, at the implementation level, we automatically get asked about abuse and neglect, because that's such a massive part of the story of residential schools in Canada: the horrors of residential schools in Canada.

We don't have enough information from Tibet. We assume that there are abuse and neglect, but the idea that.... You can see a lot of slick propaganda online about these schools. The facilities can be quite beautiful and new and modern. The food can be fantastic. All of those things are true, and it's still wrong what they're doing.

The Chinese government knows how to do these things more now, in the way that they use “modernization” and “universal pre-K education” and all these ideas to mask the true intent, but then, in their policy documents and decrees, you can see the true intent.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Right, and I guess there are a few points of difference I'm gleaning out of that and that I think are useful to understand. One is that we know less about what's happening there right now than we do about the history of residential schools in Canada. That's understandable, given the timing and also the work that's been done here on the Canadian side, but then also it's being justified in modern progressive lingo around education, because the Chinese state is sophisticated enough to try to co-opt that discourse for its own advantage. Maybe what you're saying is that the ideology is similar, but the rhetoric and the justifications are different.

[Lhadon Tethong]

Absolutely, and the resources dedicated in a globalized world to the PR around all of this: That's the key. We know how much Beijing has invested in its global public relations strategy, essentially.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I might be almost out of time, but does anybody want to add to that in any way?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Does anyone have a final word?

[Chemi Lhamo]

Yes. In short, the goal of this is to take the “Tibetan” out of the Tibetan children.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have the floor for three and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To answer Mr. Genuis, the difference is that Canadian civil society and politicians have denounced the residential schools. However, I don't think that China has done that. When the Chinese say we had residential schools in Canada, we tell them we're in the process of shedding light on those crimes, and they were indeed crimes.

So the Chinese can't criticize us on that issue. We're currently setting up discussion tables to promote reconciliation. I don't want to expand on that. I want to go back to what I was saying about Xi Jinping.

As I understand it, we can impose sanctions under the Sergei Magnitsky Law on certain officials and certain institutions or organizations on Chinese soil that are currently helping develop these residential boarding schools—and are therefore participating in cultural genocide or assimilation—but the fact remains that the person overseeing this entire increasingly aggressive policy is Xi Jinping.

However, I don't hear Western governments criticizing Xi Jinping directly when it comes to these residential boarding schools. When the Uighur genocide comes up, no one points to Xi Jinping.

Wouldn't this perhaps be the best angle for democratic governments around the globe to take?

When we're talking about genocide, when we're a signatory to a convention like that and clearly one individual is overseeing the entire cultural genocide policy, the genocide of the Uighurs, shouldn't governments or parliaments around the world directly speak up against Xi Jinping via sanctions and by blaming him? I am putting that out there.

Ms. Richardson, do you have anything to say about this?

[Dr. Sophie Richardson]

I couldn't agree more.

This is a highly centralized political system, and it's also one that takes seriously the level of government from which a critique is coming. While I thought it was wonderful to see Prime Minister Trudeau at the vote last week, it would be equally important to hear him direct a critique to Xi Jinping specifically on this issue and many others.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Ms. Tethong, would you like to say something?

[Lhadon Tethong]

I was just going to say that Tibetans from Tibet will always say that you have to understand that the Chinese leadership respects strength. To tiptoe around them and to do whatever, to bend over backwards to avoid any uncomfortable exchanges, we can see that's not their approach.

At the same time they're doing what they're doing and it's getting worse, in part because we all facilitated it by allowing ourselves to get caught up in endless dialogue with no action and to take the teeth out of every possible mechanism that could hold them accountable.

I think it's time to return to a stronger position, directly, exactly as you said, targeting the very people responsible at the highest levels.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I know that parliamentarians around the globe have economic agreements with China and when we stand up to China, it has an economic impact on people in our own constituencies.

I believe we need to be on the right side of history. Unfortunately, genocide has happened in the past and we've always been slow to react. Right now, extreme human rights violations are happening in China and the Canadian government isn't doing enough, in my opinion. You be the judge.

I believe Ms. Tethong hit the nail on the head. Canada has always shown leadership on human rights, and notice that a Quebec sovereignist is telling you that.

In your opinion, is Canada able to lead as it has in the past on human rights in China?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

We're in overtime, so you have 30 seconds, please.

[Lhadon Tethong]

Absolutely, and I think Canada has demonstrated in more ways than one that, as a nation, we're committed to a relationship and a friendship with China. I think that has to be coupled with sticking to our values for the betterment of all.

I would say also that it's really important for us to recognize that, with what we saw in China—the protests by these young people recently against the COVID policies, the sentiments that many of them expressed and now they have been disappeared—this is not just about us. It's also about them and their rights and their freedoms.

I think there is more opportunity and hope than ever before, sadly because they have experienced the repression of the COVID policies and the craziness of the government overreach and the way that people have been treated, but they have expressed solidarity with Uighurs now. They have come out and risked their lives, so I think we owe it to them also to do more.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. Tethong and Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Ms. McPherson, you have three and a half minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm trying to make some sort of ties in my brain. I sit on the Canada-China committee as well as the international human rights committee, and recently we've been talking about Chinese interference in Canada and the impacts that has had on Chinese Canadians and other folks in Canada.

I'm just wondering if you could talk a little bit about the intimidation tactics, which we have certainly heard of. There are reportedly Chinese police stations across the country, in places such as Vancouver and Toronto, that are being used as bases to intimidate people who are standing up for their rights and who are opposing or dissenting from China.

Could you talk a little bit about that, please?

[Chemi Lhamo]

Thank you for that question.

I've actually testified in front of the Canada-China committee regarding my own case in 2019, when I ran for U of T student union president. I was attacked with thousands of death threats and rape threats. I've spoken with CSIS, RCMP and any type of security, you name it. We've also recommended, in a report from Amnesty, that the least the Canadian government can do is to have a point person we could go to for support. We've been pointed everywhere, but there is still nowhere we can get support.

Onwards, because Dr. Gyal Lo has been here testifying publicly and telling you folks the truth about the hidden policies of preschool boarding, tomorrow if he gets a threat, he would come to me and ask me for advice and I'd have no good advice to give him. This is me with the privileges and access to Parliament I've had, with access to every kind of security available in Canada, and I have no response. I don't know what else to say in that regard.

The intimidation tactics are just all over, and with the police stations we are scared to navigate our own communities. We know spies are integrated within our communities. For years we've been telling folks, and now we still have not seen any action. We hope to see that soon.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Certainly, we have had representatives from the RCMP and CSIS and, of course, the Minister of Public Safety. I tried to make it very clear to him that what I'm hearing in my constituency office is that these people have nowhere to go. They have no one to talk to. They are getting the runaround and they are not being protected.

One of the other things we talked about was the creation of a foreign registry. Do you think that would be a tool that would be helpful for Canada to implement to protect people?

[Chemi Lhamo]

Yes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That was very clear.

I think it's something the government has said they're interested in, but it feels to me as though we've had a very long time to do this. This is not new, as I think all of the witnesses have said. None of this is just starting. It's just that it's escalating. It's just that it's getting worse, and we have to act on that.

Are there any comments from those online as well?

[Lhadon Tethong]

Sophie, do you want to go?

[Dr. Sophie Richardson]

I'll just add quickly that we've looked at this issue in Canada and a couple of other democracies with respect to Chinese government threats to academic freedom, in countries like Canada, the U.S., etc.

It's largely been about the freedom that students and scholars of and from China have to participate in university life and in debates and research, free of interference. I don't think we've seen any democracy or universities take sufficient steps to put protections in place so that people can really learn and study and debate.

Equally, Chemi's example is probably one of the best known ones, but we have had so many people essentially say to us, “We don't feel free to even introduce our ideas or debate them here on a campus partly because we don't think the institution understands what these pressures are, let alone how to put in place mechanisms for reporting or for effective push-back.”

I think that's another area that could possibly merit some more attention.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Absolutely.

We are seeing research happening in the universities across the country, in a whole bunch of the areas where we need to make sure we're doing more to protect individuals.

Ms. Tethong.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

I saw that you wanted to comment.

We're over time again, so please give us just some very brief remarks.