Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 10th, 2023

[Kaveh Shahrooz]

That's is a very good question, MP Ehsassi.

With the caveat that I've only seen very preliminary news reports and haven't had time to digest it very much yet, my instinct is that this is actually bad news for human rights in Iran for a variety of reasons, but primarily because it gives a further lifeline to the Islamic regime in Tehran. It removes a particular sort of threat. This regional rivalry with Saudi Arabia was a particular threat to the Islamic regime, so the Iranian regime will likely be empowered as a result of it.

Furthermore, Iran will be further empowered by the fact that China now seems to be fully in the camp of supporting Iran's regime. I think that anything that normalizes and stabilizes that regime further and gets it out of the moment of crisis that it's been in for the past few months is bad news for Iran's people and the human rights movement generally.

My recommendation to the subcommittee and to the government would be for us to not take our eye off the ball. Iran's regime remains an apartheid regime and we ought to continue to treat it as such, even if it creates alliances with those in its neighbourhood. We ought to remain committed to helping Iranian people and Iranian women in particular.

I urge you. Even if Iran gains allies in the region, Canada should remain steadfast in its support of Iranian people.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

For my second question, Mr. Shahrooz, quite often I hear, here in Canada, that people labour under the illusion that the Iranian community in Canada is fragmented and that there are some who like the regime and some who don't.

Given your extensive activities in the Iranian Canadian community, what is your sense of the popularity of the regime amongst Iranian Canadians?

Also, I understand that there was a new poll of Iranians within Iran. How do Iranians within the country view this odious regime?

[Kaveh Shahrooz]

I think you're asking a really critical question.

The reason I say that is that, regrettably, a narrative has taken hold in the west and in the western media that there is a real divide in the community and that some people support the regime while some people are opposed to it. The truth of the matter is that I struggle to find anyone in the community—and I'm very involved in the community, as are you, MP Ehsassi—who supports this regime.

Obviously, there are going to be people who have ties to that regime. Regrettably, they have found their way to Canada, so they may have sympathies for the regime or they may even, in fact, be representatives of the regime, here in secret. By and large, the Iranian people in the diaspora despise this regime. They want it gone.

There have been protests in recent months that have drawn tens of thousands of people here in Canada. In the town of Richmond Hill, we had a protest where 50,000 people came out. That was the police estimate. You don't get 50,000 Canadians coming out for very many things, but we had 50,000 people coming out to say that they reject the Islamic Republic.

Similarly, the poll that you cited is a good poll. It points to the fact that Iranian people inside the country in very large numbers—I forget the exact number, but it's something around 80% or so, I think—want this regime gone. This regime really has no base of support inside or outside the country.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much for that, Mr. Shahrooz. I completely agree with you.

Now could I go to Dr. Hoodfar?

Thank you so much, Dr. Hoodfar, for being with us today.

Dr. Hoodfar, you restricted your comments to Iran and Afghanistan and how difficult it has been on women, how systematic these impediments have been for women. I am wondering if you could also comment on the regrettable brain drain that both these countries are suffering. How big a phenomenon is that? What can the world do to make sure that the human resources that are leaving these two countries are put to good use?

[Dr. Homa Hoodfar]

In fact, it is very regrettable, especially in the context of Afghanistan. In the context of Iran, a large number have left, but they have kept in touch. There are also quite a few people inside the country, and that has helped. Many Iranians hope that if the regime changes, they could go back and be at the service of the country, even if they don't necessarily want to completely move back to Iran.

In the case of Afghanistan, the situation is a little bit more dire. The fact is that the whole takeover by the Taliban was a surprise. Many of the elite have left, and those who are left in the country have not yet.... They are still in shock. One of the major issues is to bring all the people, all the experts, the politicians who are outside, and bring them together to form an alliance, have a summit, have a program and really work like a nation outside the boundaries of the country.

My worry has been that there are not enough steps taken to bring people together, have those summits, make larger and smaller groups that are connected and work.... It's the same with education. We really need to establish an education system for the country outside the border of that country if we want to save Afghanistan from the ideology of the Taliban, which will spill over to neighbouring and other countries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Hoodfar and Mr. Ehsassi.

We're going to continue on to our next round.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for participating in this extremely important study.

My colleague Mr. Ehsassi raised some interesting questions about the regime and its position.

Mr. Shahrooz, you said that most Iranians, especially in the diaspora, want to see this regime fall. On that, we tend to agree.

However, isn't opposition to the regime fragmented, I mean, aren't there different movements within it that make it more difficult for Canada to take a stand on the situation in Iran?

I'd like you to shed some light on this for me, because I've spoken with opponents of the regime who don't necessarily have the same vision of what Iran should be like in the future, after the likely fall of the regime.

[Kaveh Shahrooz]

I regret that the sound system translation seemed to cut off, so I didn't catch the end of your question. I'm sorry.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will take back my time, if I may.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Please go ahead. We're not going to penalize you for that.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I therefore take back my six minutes of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

I believe it's only your question that the witness didn't hear. Go ahead and ask it again.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I'll start from the beginning.

Thank you to everyone for being with us today to participate in this important study.

Mr. Shahrooz, Mr. Ehsassi asked you some compelling questions about opposition to the regime in the diaspora.

I totally agree with you that the vast majority of the diaspora is opposed to the regime currently in place. However, I've spoken with representatives of various opposition movements, and I wonder if the opposition is fragmented. I get the impression that there are different visions of what Iran should be like after the regime falls. That makes it hard for a country to take a stand.

I'd like you to enlighten me on this.

[Kaveh Shahrooz]

Understood. That's really an excellent question.

There is a difference in view in the diaspora in terms of what Iran should look like and what its orientation should be. Should it be a more of a left-leaning country or a right-leaning country? Among any group of people, any nation, there will be people who have different politics, but quite frankly, I've never seen this level of unity in the diaspora on the core idea that the Islamic regime must go. This spans everything from the far left of the Iranian community to the far right. I think they are all united on that.

I would also say that the chant I cited in my testimony, “Women, life, freedom”, is sort of the glue that holds the different views of the diaspora together. This is a commitment to women's rights and a rejection of the patriarchy of the Islamic Republic; to life, and a celebration of life, and a rejection of the cult of death and executions and the degradation of life by the Islamic Republic; and to freedom, which I think speaks for itself.

I think the entire diaspora, or the vast majority of the diaspora, is united on that. That tells me that their vision of a future Iran is a democratic one. It's a pluralistic one. It's one that respects women. There will be political disputes, as there will be in any country, but I think the opposition is united on a commitment to democracy and women's rights.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Shahrooz.

Dr. Hoodfar, I've also been in contact with some minorities that are either part of Iran or Afghanistan. I'm thinking, for example, of the Kurds, but also the Hazaras in Afghanistan.

The situation for women is already atrocious in these countries, so isn't it even worse when they're part of an ethnic or religious minority?

The committee members would be very grateful if you could paint a picture of the situation for women in these minorities.

[Dr. Homa Hoodfar]

Thank you for this question.

This movement of “Women, life, freedom” actually started from the Kurdish area. Because it started from the margins, it brought those voices that usually are omitted from the voices in the centre. This time, this movement has brought people together. It has given a voice for the first time amongst the movement to, for instance, Baluchi women and Kurdish women. They now have the space that historically they have never had. That to me is a very major thing.

The situation of Hazaras in the context of Afghanistan, unfortunately, is not as bright. There are still lots of attacks by the Taliban, especially for Hazaras inside Afghanistan, because they are a religious minority as well as a racial minority. That really needs the attention of our international community. They live in a gender apartheid society, but they are also especially prosecuted for being Hazaras and being a Shia minority. Unfortunately, that's one of the saddest situations in Afghanistan—the Hazaras who are left behind.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I would also like Ms. Gonzalez Manchón to tell us about the situation of Hazara women in Afghanistan, if she has the expertise.

[Beatriz Gonzalez Manchón]

Thank you for the question.

I don't necessarily have any expertise on the Hazara ethnic minority. However, whenever we talk about human rights, there is obviously some intersectionality.

With oppressive systems or ideologies like the ones we're talking about, obviously we're seeing various aspects of discrimination, and I guess it happens in Afghanistan as well in ethnic minorities. We're seeing it in ethnic minorities in Myanmar, Iraq and other countries.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Gonzalez Manchón.

Mr. Shahrooz, some saw what was done to the schoolgirls in Iran, which specifically targeted girls, as retaliation by the regime.

Do you agree with the theory that these girls were targeted purely out of vengeance, and to warn people of what's to come?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Could you answer in about 10 or 20 seconds, please?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I'm sorry.

[Kaveh Shahrooz]

I'm sorry, but I always lose the tail end of the question, but I—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

In your opinion, was it a desire for vengeance that led the regime to target the schoolgirls?

Was it also a warning to the rest of the people of what's to come?

[Kaveh Shahrooz]

I'm sorry, but for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to be working. However, I think I understood the thrust of the question.

This does seem to be born out of a desire for vengeance, for punishing these schoolgirls. You must understand that girls as young as 10 were seen protesting in large numbers against this regime, and this regime's modus operandi has been to target precisely the people who are standing up against them.

For example, the working class rose up against the regime and two of the people this regime executed very publicly were working-class young men to send a message to the working class to go back home and stop protesting. These chemical attacks against schoolgirls also seem to be in that vein. They seem to be designed to send a message to these girls that if they come out again, if they push back against the government, if they join these protests, they will be punished, and the regime is going to target the very thing that empowers them, which is their education.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Shahrooz.

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe.