Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 28th, 2023

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

Now, Ms. Fahmi, you were talking about the need for fact-finding and for investigations. I completely agree with you there, especially given the fact that it not only would entail keeping an eye on developments regarding what the government is doing or not doing, but would also look into what militias are doing throughout the country.

So far there have been UN special rapporteurs. Has Nigeria allowed them access to the country? Have they been allowed to actually do their job thoroughly?

[Hulda Fahmi]

If I remember correctly, the special rapporteur on extrajudicial executions was one of the most recent visits. That was in 2019. She did a very thorough investigation. She put out a warning—that was mentioned in the last hearing as well—that if nothing is done, things will get much worse.

The problem is that Nigeria may allow them to come into the country, but then it completely disregards them and actually calls those investigations false and faulty. It said that what she said had no value at all and then just condemned it. It's done that with several other reports.

The U.K. All Party Parliamentary Group for International Freedom of Religion or Belief released a report on the genocide unfolding in Nigeria. Similarly, the press secretary released a statement on that.

There's more pushing and then it stays at that. There's no investigation, which is concerning because what you want is action after that, not just a statement that avoids it.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Given all of the impediments that Nigeria is putting in their way, is there another type of investigative mechanism that, in your opinion, could do a more thorough job?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Give a quick response.

[Hulda Fahmi]

What we've mentioned is a commission of inquiry, similar to what you had in South Sudan.

You need people on the ground to investigate. Also, you need protection for the ones who are doing the investigating.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

We'll continue to our next round with Mr. Viersen for five minutes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

To the last witness who was speaking, I want to ask about the claims of genocide. Has this been recognized by any other governments anywhere in the world?

[Hulda Fahmi]

That is a good question.

There are states that have put up the warning sign. Hungary has given a lot of aid to affected communities, so they have noted this. I know that Hungary doesn't have the best reputation within the EU, but with regard to individuals who are affected by violence, they have been very clear.

This is not a state, but the Sovereign Order of Malta sponsored an event regarding the sale and exploitation of women and girls in Nigeria.

Those are the two countries that come to mind. I think there are probably additional countries.

What we've seen from Genocide Watch, which also released a report, is that they're recognizing Boko Haram but not the increasing use of other militant groups and the violence they're perpetrating. It is concerning that they're taking the Nigerian government's stance on these issues.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

This is for either witness. What is the interplay with China and Russia in Nigeria? Are they an influence in the persecution happening in the region?

Ms. Fahmi, go ahead.

[Hulda Fahmi]

I can't speak super clearly on this. It would just be speculation, but where there's a void in engagement by the international community, other groups come in. There have been reports, for example, of the Wagner Group sponsoring some of the militant groups. We do know that weapons were dropped—but this was regarding Turkey—and were brought to militant groups within Nigeria. However, I can't speak to Nigeria; I'm not the right person.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Okay.

Angela, do you have any comments on that?

[Angela Uzoma-Iwuchukwu]

Apart from what Ms. Fahmi has mentioned, there are also—again, this is just speculation—economic interests fuelling banditry in the northwest. It's not very clear at what level the Chinese are involved. We're not sure whether it's the government, but of course, there are some illegal mining activities that are fuelling banditry. There are also reports of sponsoring some of the armed groups, particularly in the northwest.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Ms. Fahmi, you mentioned the Wagner Group. Where should we look or who should we look to to get a little more intel on their activities in the region?

[Hulda Fahmi]

There are a lot of independent individuals looking at the connections. There are investigative journalists. I know there's a round table in D.C. with an Africa working group. Chair Scott Morgan works on these issues. Militant Wire reports on this as well, so I would recommend reaching out to them.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

If you had a recommendation for Canada's engagement on this issue, is there one thing Canada could do that you recommend we attempt? What's a top priority for you, Ms. Fahmi?

[Hulda Fahmi]

The initial one is to introduce a commission of inquiry for Nigeria through the UN mechanism. You have all the examples of Nigeria not responding to UN communications on multiple issues. That's one place Canada can step in as a valued voice in the international space.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Viersen.

We'll continue now with five minutes for Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We spoke about mining. As you know, Canada is likely one of the countries with the most registered mining companies because of our laws.

Is Canada not putting itself in a rather blatant contradictory situation when it gives free rein to the activities of mining companies in Nigeria that are likely violating human and environmental rights? Isn't there something that Canada could do by way of a due diligence law, for example?

I would like to hear from Ms. Fahmi or from Ms. Uzoma‑Iwuchukwu, as a lawyer. Would it be worthwhile for Canada to take action in that regard to make real changes on the ground?

[Hulda Fahmi]

I would agree that, yes, they should do something. Do due diligence, know who the actors are and put sanctions on individuals. Also, look at where they are. Are they in conflict areas? Oftentimes, that is the case. There was an event, actually, at the Africa leadership summit, saying that in the mining areas, violence is used to displace the populations. There does need to be due diligence.

I will give this to Angela.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Do you have anything to add, Ms. Uzoma‑Iwuchukwu?

[Angela Uzoma-Iwuchukwu]

Yes, that is a very sensitive issue.

One of the first things could be to push for transparency around the issue of mining, because, of course, the mining in this context is illegal mining, so there needs to be transparency. There also needs to be due diligence. There is lots of speculation as to who is given the rights of entry to these companies, and there are lots of interests involved. It's really about due diligence but also transparency. Transparency is important.

It's going on particularly in the crisis areas, in the conflict areas, and the government is not speaking up. Also, the media is being stifled from communicating very much on those issues, so a lot of transparency is required.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Ms. Fahmi, you spoke about the importance of setting up an observation mission on the ground led by the UN. We would like to see Canada take a leadership position with the UN in organizing such a mission.

However, as I just mentioned, Canada is not taking action when mining companies registered here violate laws and human rights. What is more, in its most recent budget, Canada just cut $1.3 billion in funding for humanitarian aid and international development.

In that context and given its reputation, do you think Canada will be able to demonstrate its leadership skills on the international stage?

How do the people of Nigeria see Canada? Does Canada still have a good enough reputation to organize or lead such a mission?

[Hulda Fahmi]

I'll give the last question to Angela because she is sitting in Nigeria, and I think she has a better idea about that.

However, I would say that it's the actions. You have to judge people on their actions, and it's never too late to start good actions. Otherwise, what is the point in living if you can't start afresh and work? Once we know, we are responsible for acting.

All of you parliamentarians have now heard what's going on in Nigeria. We know it and you know it, and now it's your responsibility to take this further. It doesn't matter if it's today. Now you know, so now you can go ahead.