Evidence of meeting #35 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was genocide.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:30 a.m.
Visiting Lecturer and Researcher, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's a concept, but it was formulated and established in 1948, so before that—
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
The convention came about, but that doesn't mean the concept wasn't around before 1944.
11:30 a.m.
Visiting Lecturer and Researcher, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
The concept was, yes.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
11:30 a.m.
Visiting Lecturer and Researcher, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
There are a lot of scholars. I can send a lot of references to you.
That law can't be retroactively applied to all the incidents that happened—
11:30 a.m.
Visiting Lecturer and Researcher, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
The convention is the law.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
In any event, you agree that there has been systematic persecution of the Hazaras since the early 20th century. You agree with that. Is that correct?
11:35 a.m.
Visiting Lecturer and Researcher, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
11:35 a.m.
Visiting Lecturer and Researcher, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Okay. Thank you.
Dr. Shaaran, it has been very, very difficult since 2021. I'm wondering how things are proceeding currently in Afghanistan. Would you agree that gender apartheid is being committed by the Taliban and that the Hazaras are victims of that?
October 17th, 2023 / 11:35 a.m.
Canadian Hazara Advocacy Group
I agree with that. Unfortunately, under the Taliban In Afghanistan there is clearly gender apartheid and ethnic apartheid. It's not just gender apartheid. It's both, unfortunately.
If we are saying that the Taliban are different from Daesh, this is arguable. In 1998, if there weren't any Daesh at that time, why were 8,000 Hazaras killed in Mazar-i-Sharif and thousands killed in Bamiyan, the city I was born in? Apart from that, the Daesh emerged in 2008. There has been a genocide of the Hazaras and they have been attacked in their mosques and their schools since 2002.
Furthermore, the Taliban keep telling the international community that there is no Daesh in Afghanistan and that there is no terrorist group acting in Afghanistan. If there is no terrorist group, why is there suicide bombing in our community every day, and targeting of our schools, where hundreds of our kids get killed and hundreds of our kids get displaced? If they are saying they are not Daesh, then who are they? If they are Daesh, then they're responsible, because they are in control of this country right now. They are in control of the safety and security of the people. That is one concern.
In terms of apartheid, I can add more. Hazaras women have been affected more than any other community because of gender apartheid. Over the last 20 years, as I mentioned, in the Hazaras community there was actually a pro-democratic process. Hazaras women, compared with any other ethnic group, actually participated in the democratic process, including elections and so on. That's why they have been affected more than any other people in Afghanistan, unfortunately, due to the Taliban's apartheid policy against women.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you.
You touched on the issue of displacement that is taking place for the Hazaras community in Afghanistan. Could you give us a sense of the scale of the challenge over the course of the past three or four years?
11:35 a.m.
Canadian Hazara Advocacy Group
I have submitted a very long study on this issue in the Etilaat newspaper on the displacement of Hazaras. You can clearly see that hundreds of Hazaras families have been displaced over two years.
In the place I was born, in Qarghanato in Bamiyan province, last year no one in my place could take their livestock to pasture. The Taliban wouldn't let them. Unfortunately, there are thousands of falsified documents making allegations against the lands of the Hazaras. With the Taliban, anyone can claim, under the names of nomads and Kuchis, that 40 years ago, for instance, this was their land. I can actually read much of that. I have a lot of reports, if you have the time. I have already submitted that. I can give you a clear example on much of that.
I will give you one example. In Nawur last year, a young Kuchi came to the Taliban and said that 20 years ago their son was injured by the Afghan army, and now the Hazaras community should pay them around one million afghani as compensation. You have blood money compensation and many other things. I have a lot of records that I can give to the committee, if you want.
Unfortunately, this is something that's ongoing. This is not something new. This was carried on in the past in the Hazaras community, but now they have the support of the Taliban. Anyone can come and claim and have a dispute against the Hazaras and then take their land.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Salehi, I, too, was a little surprised to hear what you had to say. My colleague Mr. Ehsassi summed up what I was thinking. If I understand your theory correctly, given that the genocide convention was ratified in 1948, anything that occurred earlier cannot be considered genocide.
Are you telling us that Canada erred in recognizing the Armenian genocide and the Ukrainian genocide, known as the Holodomor?
According to your theory, was this a mistake on Canada's part?
11:40 a.m.
Visiting Lecturer and Researcher, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Well, I can't say that Canada is wrong, but as a legal expert, that's my interpretation of the principle of retroactivity. I interpret it in that way, and there are a lot of lawyers that say—
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Salehi.
I've just heard that it may have been a mistake to recognize the Armenian genocide. I could have fallen off my chair when I heard that, if it didn't have arms.
Mr. Ibrahimi, we're going to talk about the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, adopted in 1948. Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.”
Is what happened to the Hazaras in Afghanistan between 1891 and 1893 consistent with Article II, which I've just read?
11:40 a.m.
Senior Lecturer, International Relations, La Trobe University, As an Individual
Thank you for that question.
I think we have determined that in the testimony we have sent already, I think in May of this year. We have applied article 2 and article 3 of the convention to the situation of the Hazaras, which claims that genocide is any of the “acts committed” towards “a specific ethnic, racial or religious group” and “committed with the intent to destroy” the group “in whole or in part”.
We should also remember that the whole group should not be destroyed for us to claim that a genocide happened, right? What is important is that there should be an “intent” or conspiracy to commit that sort of crime for there to be a case made for a genocide. I think that if you look at it historically, there are several episodes of violence towards the Hazaras that we can clearly justify calling “genocide”.
I think that the events of 1891 to 1893 are on a par with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War in terms of intensity and scope. Of course, as we know, not all Armenians were killed, but that is one of the most widely established historical cases of genocide. I think the Hazaras, as is commonly believed, lost 62% of their population during those three years alone. Then you have August 1998, in which up to 8,000 Hazaras were killed during a period of about one week.
Then, over the years, you can also see similar things happening and again link them. I think there is plenty of evidence that there is now, as we speak, an intention to destroy the Hazaras “in whole or in part”. I think we can look at all those incidents and put them all together: attacks on maternity wards, attacks on educational centres and attacks on women. Often in many of those schools, there are attacks on young Hazara girls. I think all of this really clearly symbolizes an intent on the part of these groups to commit genocide on the Hazaras.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Ibrahimi.
Mr. Shaaran, what would it mean for the Hazaras, wherever they live, whether in Canada or Afghanistan, if the committee came to the conclusion that there was indeed a genocide between 1891 and 1893? What effect would that have on the Hazaras in their communities in Canada and the rest of the world?
11:40 a.m.
Canadian Hazara Advocacy Group
If you recognize that this was genocide, I think this is very important not just for the Hazaras but important for all of humanity. In general, as a community, we have been suffering for over 130 years. We've experienced ongoing genocide and still are experiencing it. I think this would mean a lot.
We actually wanted to prevent that, just as Dr. Ibrahimi mentioned. Then we had the head of the international Genocide Watch, Dr. Gregory Stanton, at one of the conferences, and in his statement he mentioned that it's very important to take action to prevent further atrocity against the Hazara community.
I think whatever kind of action takes place, especially in this committee and the House of Commons, would be greatly appreciated by the Hazaras and by all humankind, in terms of preventing further atrocities against people, because nowadays we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow for the Hazaras. It doesn't matter where you are. If you live in Kabul, in Mazar or in Hazarajat, you don't know if tomorrow your relatives will die or under what kinds of circumstances or conditions.
I think that for us this is a really appreciated and important action to be taken. It actually will help us a lot to end our suffering, at least, and will put more pressure on the Taliban and on other people. A lot of people think we don't have any leverage against the Taliban, but I'm saying, no, with the international community, there's huge leverage.
The Taliban will listen to you, but you have to take action. If you take it, then this is going to put value on that and put pressure on the Taliban to at least prevent further atrocities.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Shaaran.
I'd like to use my remaining time to point out to the analysts that a witness said that it might have been a mistake to recognize the Armenian genocide and the Holodomor. I therefore ask the analysts to pay close attention to her testimony when the time comes to write the report.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
