Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 17th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe.

Now I invite Ms. McPherson to speak. You have the floor for seven minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

I want to start by expressing my deep sympathy for the people of Afghanistan and the Hazara community on the recent earthquakes that have happened in Afghanistan. I know that it must feel like the world is looking elsewhere at the moment and is not recognizing the death and destruction that we are seeing in Afghanistan. I'm deeply sorry for that.

I also want to acknowledge the impact of Pakistan's deportation on Afghans, on the Hazara people and on Afghan refugees who are fleeing violence. I know that this is more impactful on those who are being persecuted under the Taliban regime. I don't want you to think that people in Afghanistan have been forgotten, because you have not been.

My first question is for you, sir.

You just talked about the need to call out the genocidal actions of the Taliban and the genocide that is happening against the Hazara people. I'm worried, because I don't have the same optimism that you have expressed that the Taliban is listening to us. We have seen constant attacks on women's rights and on minority groups like the Hazaras. There have been violent murders and behaviour by the Taliban towards minority groups.

Why do you think they are listening or paying attention? Can you give me some more hope, please, that this is the case?

[Dr. Tahir Shaaran]

There are two things.

First, with regard to whether the Taliban are listening or not, I think they will listen, and I will elaborate on that. With regard to the Hazara genocide recognition as a whole for humankind, I think the atrocity is just ongoing, and it needs to be recognized at an international level. That is what our community in Canada and elsewhere wants to happen.

In terms of listening.... Since the last attack that we had last year on our education centre back in Kabul where 57 girls, mainly under 19 years old, were killed, unfortunately, we actually had a “Stop Hazara Genocide” campaign. We had demonstrations across the globe in 130 cities and in more than 50 or 60 countries. We then had #StopHazaraGenocide, which was retweeted more than 15 million times on Twitter. Actually, when we were back in contact in Afghanistan, we realized that the Taliban were actually taking things seriously. Over the last year, fortunately, we haven't had any attacks on this kind of a scale, but they changed their strategy. Now there is ongoing genocide in terms of forced displacement and individual targeting, not directly targeting their schools or mosques.

Unfortunately, just recently—a week ago—a bomb was exploded in one of the Hazara mosques in northern Afghanistan, and 30 people were killed. I mentioned this in my statement.

This is something that I can see is important for them, because at the end of the day, they are actually wanting to.... The international community is somehow having traction with them at some level. I think that this will have an impact.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

One of my questions—to follow up quickly, and then I'll pass it back to our other two witnesses—is this: What else does Canada need to do? I know that we've struggled to get the legislation in place to make sure that the aid can go there. That has gone through, albeit not in a perfect manner. What other steps would you like to see us take? What other steps should the international community be taking at this time to protect the Hazaras and even more to protect that intersectionality? We know that the Hazaras are deeply impacted, but Hazara women are even more impacted, of course, under the Taliban. It's that intersectionality where we see journalists, lawyers, members of Parliament.... It's the intersectionality of being part of a minority group and part of one of the most attacked groups in Afghanistan.

[Dr. Tahir Shaaran]

Our people are really thankful in general to Canada, because in this difficult situation the contribution you make in international aid to Afghanistan is enormous compared to that of any other country.

One thing, however, is important. Unfortunately the policy on the ground is such that international aid gets diverted from the Hazaras. I already submitted a few files that you can go through. The local people in Bamiyan and Daykundi sent their complaints to the international community about how the aid that was supposed to come to our area was shifted to other provinces and other places.

I think we need to make sure the international organizations that are actually providing aid in Afghanistan are accountable. They have to make sure that the aid is distributed equally among all individual groups in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened over the past 20 years. Even with the existence of the international community, the Hazara community was marginalized in comparison with any other ethnic group or other community in Afghanistan in terms of receiving international aid.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

Miss Salehi, I strongly disagree with what you have said on genocide. I think that it's very painful for many members of different communities to hear. I'm not going to ask you some of those questions. Certainly I agree with my colleague from the Bloc that we should be considering that when we consider your testimony.

However, I do know that you have some expertise with regard to women's rights and protecting the rights of women in Afghanistan and that you actually did implement interventions. Can you talk a little bit about the policies that were enacted to support and protect Hazara women?

[Shabnam Salehi]

With regard to gender persecution or gender apartheid in Afghanistan, it's all over Afghanistan, especially when it comes to intersectionality. Marginalized groups like the Hazaras and other women are the most targeted at this time.

I think the only hope that Afghani women have right now is the international community, which can force the Taliban to somehow reverse their gender policies in Afghanistan. That's the only thing I see—that the international community would force the Taliban to somehow reverse their policies.

I just want to make one correction. I didn't say that Canada didn't do the right thing; I just gave my interpretation of the principle. We have this principle, and that's my interpretation as a lawyer.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Miss Salehi.

Thank you, Miss McPherson.

Now I believe Dr. Ibrahimi has something to say to the committee.

[Dr. Niamatullah Ibrahimi]

Thank you, Chair.

I would like to make a quick point on the question of whether or not the Taliban are listening. I think the Taliban have not been listening for the past two years, partly because of the mixed messaging they have been receiving from the international community. Until very recently, the situation of women in Afghanistan was not really at the top of the international agenda. Given the intensity and systematic nature of violence towards women in Afghanistan, I think it still does not receive as much attention as it should have from the international community.

I think the situation of groups such as the Hazaras in Afghanistan is not at the top of the international agenda. I think one thing Canada can consider doing is to recognize the nature of the situation in Afghanistan with regard to people like the Hazaras.

They can also use and support international mechanisms for documenting and supporting international investigations. I think human rights groups for many years have also been calling for independent investigation mechanisms created by the UN Human Rights Council. I think that would be one step, and supporting investigations by the International Criminal Court, for example, would be another.

Afghanistan has been a state party to the International Criminal Court since 2003, and there is an ongoing investigation, but the investigation hasn't really been making much progress. I think there is a need for international attention to place human rights and mass atrocity prevention at the centre of international engagement with regard to Afghanistan.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Dr. Ibrahimi.

Now we go to the second round. I believe time is running out. I would like to invite Madame Vandenbeld to take the floor for five minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll share my time with Ms. Damoff.

Before I begin my question, I want to note, because of the previous discussion, that in the preamble of the genocide convention of 1948 it says, “Recognizing that at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity....” It's right in the genocide convention.

However, my question is not about that. My question is for Mr. Shaaran.

We have focused a lot now on what has happened in the past and the atrocities that have happened in the past. I think one of the things our committee can do is make visible and amplify atrocities that are happening today in order to prevent them from happening further tomorrow.

I'm wondering if you could tell us what you would like to see this committee focus on in our statement and our recommendations, and about how we make visible what is happening to the Hazaras right now. Unfortunately, it is not on the front page of the newspapers, and it should be.

If you could give us maybe one recommendation you think we should have in our report, I'll then pass the time to Ms. Damoff.

[Dr. Tahir Shaaran]

Thank you.

I think it is very important to have a special desk for Hazaras' human rights currently, because we need to monitor them. At the moment, having direct access on the ground is not easy. For example, when I'm in contact with many people to get the right message, there are people who are scared for their life. It is very difficult. Even though my sources on the ground trust me, it's not always easy. They can actually risk their life by sending a text message or something to report something.

I think it's very important to have a desk allocated specifically to the human rights situation in Afghanistan generally, and particularly to the Hazaras—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Could you please wrap it up?

[Dr. Tahir Shaaran]

—to monitor what is going on on the ground.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Ms. Vandenbeld.

Ms. Damoff, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being here.

Dr. Shaaran, I'm a little confused by something you were saying about aid being diverted from the region. It sounds like this is not something that's been just since the Taliban took over in the country. It was prior to that, so I'm a bit confused.

We have Canadian aid organizations that are working in Afghanistan and have been for quite some time. Why would Canadian aid organizations be diverting aid from the region?

[Dr. Tahir Shaaran]

I'm not saying it's just Canada, but unfortunately the way it works.... If you look at the last 20 years, the international community mainly focused on different regions. For example, the Canadian focus was in Kandahar. The American focus was somewhere else, and then they were in Kabul and the rest. The Germans were in Mazar-i-Sharif. In Hazarajat, you had just New Zealand.

Money that was used to contribute to the development of Afghanistan wasn't much compared to other countries. If you look thoroughly at the amount of money that went to our community over the last 20 years, when the international community was there, it is very tiny compared to other areas. That's what I was saying.

At the moment, that is happening again. For example, I have a report, and I just submitted a letter from the local people as well. The international community allocated money for Bamiyan, for example, to 10 districts. However, somehow the locals, because they have to work under the Taliban.... The Taliban put on a lot of pressure and said, “Okay, the only way you can operate is if you divert this project to now go to this province, not here.”

This is what I mean by international aid being diverted from the Hazara community now. This is the pressure because of the Taliban. Even the international community cannot contribute its aid to the local people. It is very hard. It has to bargain with the Taliban. They say, “Okay, if you want the aid to go there, 90% should go elsewhere and we'll let 10% go there.”

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

It sounds like Canadian aid has not been predominantly going to the region historically anyway. Is that right?

[Dr. Tahir Shaaran]

I don't know the extent, but this is something we need to investigate.

The Afghan community in Sweden had a similar problem in 2018. Our community in Sweden sent an inquiry to the Parliament of Canada, saying that the money the Swedish and Canadian communities contributed wasn't going to the Hazara community. There was a 400- or 300-page investigation to see where the aid over the last 18 years went in Afghanistan, and how much the Hazara community actually benefited from that.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Dr. Tahir Shaaran]

You're welcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

To the committee, due to the time restriction, we could go for only another 15 minutes maximum. Would you prefer five minutes each?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'd like just two minutes each.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Mr. Genuis, you have the floor for two minutes.