Evidence of meeting #37 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Olga Aivazovska  Board Member, International Center for Ukrainian Victory
Nathaniel Raymond  Executive Director, Yale School of Public Health Humanitarian Research Lab
Andrii Mikheiev  International Law Expert, International Center for Ukrainian Victory

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 37 of the House of Commons Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow for witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to active your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For those listening to the interpretation on Zoom, you may choose the floor, English or French at the bottom of your screen. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

In accordance with our routine motion, I wish to inform the subcommittee that all witnesses have completed the required connection test in advance of the meeting.

Today we are meeting to begin our study on the situation of unlawful transfer of Ukrainian children to Russia.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I have a point of order, Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

Yes, go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

In the meeting notice, there is time set aside at the end for a budget discussion. We had informal discussions in advance, and I think there is agreement to deem the budget adopted so that we can use those 15 minutes as additional time to hear from witnesses.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

Would you like to discuss it now, or take the—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

No. Is there unanimous agreement to do that?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

Is there consensus?

Yes, go ahead, Ms. Damoff.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I just got a note that there is going to be a new budget circulated, Garnett.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

It was just circulated.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I think we can maybe do it quickly.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Yes, that's fine.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

Is that agreed to? Is everything about this idea okay?

(Motion agreed to)

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

That leaves them with a full two hours, then. Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

Our meeting begins with our study of the situation of the unlawful transfer of Ukrainian children to Russia. It is my pleasure to welcome the witnesses who have joined us this morning.

From the International Center for Ukrainian Victory, we have by video conference Ms. Olga Alvazovska, board member, and Mr. Andrii Mikheiev, international law expert.

Unfortunately, Ms. Kateryna Lytvynenko from Save the Children is not able to join the meeting.

From the Yale School of Public Health Humanitarian Research Lab, we have Mr. Nathaniel Raymond, executive director.

You will have up to five minutes for your remarks, after which we will proceed to questions from subcommittee members.

I will let you know when you have one minute left.

Thank you for agreeing to appear today.

We will start with the International Center for Ukrainian Victory and Ms. Olga Alvazovska.

Madam, you have up to five minutes for opening remarks. The floor is yours.

11:05 a.m.

Olga Aivazovska Board Member, International Center for Ukrainian Victory

Thank you to everyone. I hope I will have more time during the question-and-answer session with my colleague Andrii. We will share as much information with you as possible.

Dear members of the subcommittee and dear participants, since February 24, 2022, when Russia started its full-scale invasion, numerous violations of fundamental human rights and devastating crimes have been committed by the Russian army and politicians against the civilian population of Ukraine.

The most fearful impact of such offences is related to the most vulnerable group of the Ukrainian population—children. Ukrainian children are suffering from all kinds of crimes, which were identified by UN Security Council resolutions as grave and indefensible offences against children during the international armed conflict.

More than 510 children are officially reported as killed and more than 1,141 as wounded as a result of Russian attacks. However, the real numbers are suggested to be much higher, considering that those killed and injured are in currently occupied territories, where it is impossible to obtain exact information.

Numerous children have suffered different forms of sexual violence from Russian soldiers, with grave psychological and physical consequences. It is reported that 19,546 children have been forcibly transferred to the territory of the Russian Federation and the occupied territories of Ukraine and forcibly integrated into a Russian environment through adoption, placement into an educational institution, and the automatic obtaining of citizenship without any realistic chance of returning to Ukraine and being reunited with their families. After 20 months of Russian aggression, Ukrainian authorities have brought back to Ukraine only 300 of such children.

Indiscriminate air strikes by the Russian Federation resulted in almost 4,000 facilities and institutions for children being damaged or completely destroyed. These actions by the Russian Federation culminated in the forced deportation of Ukrainian children, their illegal adoption by Russian citizens and their forced participation in re-education, including military patriotic education.

According to the genocide convention, the forcible transfer of children from one human group to another is genocide. As well, direct incitement for such action is a crime in itself. One key international humanitarian law principle underlines that the occupying power should refrain from bringing in irreversible changes that would fundamentally alter the status of characters of occupied territories.

There are reported instances of children being taken by occupying authorities to camps in Crimea, allegedly for safety reasons and allegedly for recreation activities, but they were never returned to the homes of parents here. In the institutions where children were held, they were forced into so-called integration programs aimed at forcing on them the Russian view of what is happening in Ukraine and in the world and also in culture and society.

The Russian Federation began setting the stage for these crimes years before the full-scale aggression against Ukraine in February 2022. This process dates back to at least 2008 and had been marked by increasingly hostile language, laying the groundwork for the rejection of Ukraine's existence as a state, a nation group and a culture. Multiple international bodies, including the UN commission of inquiry on Ukraine, found continued systematic and widespread use of torture and indiscriminate attacks harming civilians, including children.

Among the devastating consequences for children, the commission has committed to investigating the illegal transfer of unaccompanied minors by Russian authorities to the Russian Federation. The commission also highlighted that some of the rhetoric transmitted in Russian state media and other media may constitute incitement to genocide.

These types of public statements also include denials of the existence of the Ukrainian state and of Ukrainians as a separate nation group. There are also statements that promulgate hatred and glorify terrorism against Ukrainians and that represent direct and public incitement to eliminate Ukrainians. This falls under the definition of a criminal act prohibited by the convention, namely incitement to genocide in the form of complete or partial destruction of the Ukrainian nation group.

That's why we want to highlight that transferring Ukrainian children to Russia involves other activities, such as the re-education of these children and the breaking of their identity as Ukrainians. These activities have a direct connection with genocide.

Thank you for your attention.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

Thank you.

Mr. Nathaniel Raymond, executive director, you have the floor for five minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Nathaniel Raymond Executive Director, Yale School of Public Health Humanitarian Research Lab

I want to thank the members of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights for inviting me here today to speak on the urgent issue of Russia’s systematic campaign of transfer, deportation, re-education and adoption of Ukrainian children.

As my colleague mentioned, the UN Security Council has identified six grave breaches against children that occur during war. These are the killing and maiming of children, recruitment or use of children in armed forces and armed groups, attacks on schools or hospitals, raping or other grave sexual violence, abduction of children, and denial of humanitarian access for children. All six of those appear to have been perpetrated by Russia against the children of Ukraine.

Before I proceed, I want us to remember all the other millions of children around the world, from Gaza to Israel to Sudan, who are also suffering these grave breaches now.

I want to briefly summarize today the public findings of the research that our team at the humanitarian research lab at the Yale School of Public Health has undertaken on the issue of Ukraine’s children specifically. This work is undertaken as a member of the U.S. State Department’s Conflict Observatory program, which uses high-resolution satellite imagery and open-source data to document alleged war crimes in Ukraine.

The HRL team has been studying the forced deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children since the summer of last year. We published our first report on the subject, “Russia’s Systematic Program for the Re-Education and Adoption of Ukraine’s Children”, in February 2023. We expect to have more reports coming out this fall in the coming weeks. We will provide those to the subcommittee and prepare a briefing if requested.

What I want to start with is that we have concluded as of February that at least 6,000 Ukrainian children have been taken to at least 43 facilities inside occupied Crimea and Russia to be subjected to so-called “patriotic re-education”; military training in the cases of at least two facilities, including one in Chechnya; and in some cases, forced fostering and adoption. These facilities stretch over 3,500 miles from the Black Sea to the eastern Pacific coast at Magadan, including one location in Siberia.

Many of the children have returned from the camps, but an unknown number—at least approximately 600 as of February 2023—remain in the facilities. The number of adopted children is unknown, but we at the humanitarian research lab and Conflict Observatory are working to answer that question literally as we speak.

It is important to understand that the children range in age from six months at the time of capture to eighteen years of age.

Here is some quick background on the origins of the program.

The program really began in 2014, with so-called “patriotic re-education” occurring at summer camps in Crimea and also in the occupied areas of Donbas. Since the full-scale invasion of 2022, President Vladimir Putin has significantly ramped up this operation to an almost industrial scale, through multiple means and measures. In early 2022 he removed laws that once prevented the adoption of Ukrainian's children. The facilities available for re-education purposes have been rapidly expanded in number and capacity. We think there are an additional 40 facilities besides those we identified in our report in February.

I want to really make clear in the limited time I have left that there are four groups of kids. There are the kids at the camps. There are the kids who were captured on the battlefield, whom we know the least about. A third group, called “the evacuees”, are children taken from facilities that were Ukrainian state facilities in places like Kherson, Zaporizhzhia and Kharkiv in the early phase of the invasion. They likely make up the majority of the children being adopted. The fourth group, which we call the “filtration kids”, were likely separated from their parents in filtration camps set up in Donetsk after the fall of Mariupol.

To close, there are four concrete steps that the Canadian government can take to help get these kids home.

First, the Prime Minister should designate a high-level focal point on issues related to unlawful deportation and transfer of Ukraine's children within the foreign ministry to coordinate Canada's activities on this matter, particularly with Ukraine, the United States and other allies.

Second, the RCMP, CSIS and other agencies in Canada's law enforcement and national security community have a critical role to play in proactively coordinating with the Ukrainian government on information sharing and the development of common data systems to support individual child identification and return.

Third, CIDA should work with its Ukrainian partners to identify and financially support the massive capacity needs around identification, reintegration and psychosocial support.

Last, fourth, Canada should leverage all of its diplomatic might to persuade other countries, particularly the Global South and all other allies that have not yet condemned these alleged war crimes—which were indicted by the International Criminal Court a month after our report's release—to denounce these activities and call for these kids to come home.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

Thank you, Mr. Raymond.

I thank the witnesses for their comments.

We will now go to the first round of questions from members of the subcommittee.

Mr. Garnett Genuis, you have the floor for seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you, Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I have a point of order, Chair.

Do we not have another witness to hear from?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury

No, she is absent.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Okay. I'm sorry.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Thank you to my colleagues in all parties. I know that there is a great deal of interest in this study from all quarters.

I was very keen to see this study happen, although I will say that I found reading the information and hearing about it profoundly chilling and difficult as a parent. I think we have an obligation to push this information out there and expose to Canadians and to all others watching what is happening here, because it's so dark and so evil.

I'd like to hear from the witnesses about how systematic these efforts are. What level of central planning and coordination is involved, and how high up the chain is this going? How far back does it go in terms of preparation for these kinds of activities?

Maybe we'll start with you, Mr. Raymond, and then we'll go to the witness from the International Center for Ukrainian Victory.

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Yale School of Public Health Humanitarian Research Lab

Nathaniel Raymond

We have very detailed information about the chain of command. It starts with Vladimir Putin and his direct action deputy. Overseeing both the adoption and camp aspect of the program is Maria Lvova-Belova, the ironically titled children's rights commissioner.

The critical middle management of this program consists of at least four regional governors plus the ministry of education, and there's sort of a sick sister cities program whereby specific communities, including at the mayoral level, are sponsoring the transfer of specific children from specific communities.

There is also a constellation of civil society groups and non-state actors, which we are documenting right now, who also help facilitate the full pipeline of the program, which is identification, targeting, logistics for transport, and housing. In some cases, there are activities related to judicial obfuscation of the children's identities in the adoption system. It is a whole-of-government and a whole-of-society program. Command and responsibility lie with Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova, but it goes all the way to the municipal level.