Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova are already subject to ICC warrants.

I think that this committee will likely want to recommend further severe sanctions against other entities and individuals involved in this, so we would appreciate follow-up in writing as that documentation process proceeds with identifying individuals and organizations that could be subject to Canadian sanctions.

I'll go to our witnesses online now in terms of the information you have on advance planning and coordination and the specific individuals and entities responsible.

[Andrii Mikheiev, International Law Expert, International Center for Ukrainian Victory]

I would like to say first, on behalf of the ICUV.... My name is Andrii Mikheiev, and I'm the international law expert.

I would like to thank Nathaniel very much for the detailed explanation of the chain of command and of all of the organizations and individuals responsible for the adoption of children and their further integration into the Russian cultural environment. We don't have a lot of information to add about these specific people, but we would like to add the activities that take place regarding such children.

We have established the fact that Russian families are currently materially and spiritually encouraged to adopt Ukrainian children—Ukrainian orphans and children deprived of parental care—as soon as possible. Also, the central local legislation in Russia has been simplified and facilitated to make these procedures faster and simpler, despite the level of protection that should be applied to ensure all of the children's human rights in the process of adoption.

We have also established that currently the occupational authorities in the occupied territories of Ukraine are threatening those parents who don't want to let their children enter pro-Russian schools—new Russian schools established with pro-Russian programs—or the teenaged children who themselves don't want to enter such assignments. They're threatening to deprive such parents of their parental authorities and put their children on the adoption list.

This is part of the reintegration policy of the Russian occupational authorities, both in Russia and in the occupied territories of Ukraine.

Thank you very much for your attention.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Mikheiev, I have one minute left.

You said “spiritually encouraged”. I wonder if you can clarify whether the implication is that there's involvement of the Russian Orthodox Church in aspects of this program.

[Andrii Mikheiev]

I'm sorry. We don't have any facts about the participation of the Russian Orthodox Church in these procedures.

However, during the local events and during the interviews with people from such families, the people are encouraged to adopt Ukrainian children. They say they're doing a good job for the state and they're doing a good job for such children. Also, everything possible is done to complete this process as quickly as possible, despite everything.

That's what I meant by “spiritually”.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. Thank you. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, but thank you for that clarification.

I think I'm out of time, but I'll have more.... I have 10 seconds. Okay. I'll save them for later.

[Nathaniel Raymond]

May I respond to the question on the Orthodox Church?

Very quickly, there are a number of potential locations that implicate the Russian Orthodox Church that are under investigation now and that we have not come to a confident finding on. However, it's important to note that Maria Lvova-Belova's husband is a member of the Russian Orthodox Church as a priest, and those connections have been present in other previous programs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

Now I invite Mr. Yvan Baker to take the floor for seven minutes, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by thanking my colleagues for inviting me to join you today. It's a real privilege to be part of this study. Thank you for studying this situation.

To our guests from Ukraine, Slava Ukraini.

Thank you very much, Mr. Raymond, for being here as well.

To our friends from Ukraine, why is Russia deporting children?

[Olga Aivazovska]

This is a very easy question if we look at some parallels from history. I usually share my personal story that my son is the first generation in my family to suffer from Russia, from Moscow. It was the tradition in the USSR stage of development of this empire that the first priority for Moscow was to have the children under the power of the authoritarian type of ideology.

Many people in Ukraine who had a connection with different protest groups, even during the USSR period, spent years and years in prison, separated from their children, many of whom were hosted by a very proactive Communist group, which took the children into their families and tried to re-educate them.

It's not something new for us, for Ukrainians. That's why I'm usually trying to share a parallel. This is genocide, an ongoing war for our nation, for the identity of Ukrainians, which wasn't started in 2014. The tools that Moscow is using now are the same as they were before. The separation of children from their families and the re-education for those who were in occupied territories for many years—from 2014—are forming the potential tool for the continuation of this war of Ukrainians against Ukrainians. Try to just imagine a boy who was only 10 years of age when Donetsk was occupied and who suffered under the Russian propaganda for 10 years, and now this boy has taken up arms and is fighting against Ukrainian soldiers. This is the best human capital for the Russian army, because Russia is willing to continue this war for years.

It's truly a long war, but when we are speaking about tools and methods, Moscow is using the same ones as before. It's nothing new for us, but we are calling for this practice to stop and we are sharing our opinion about the unacceptable use of children against the Ukrainian nation, and how it is unacceptable to change their identity. This is because we have to survive, not only physically as a state, but as a society with a new generation of Ukrainians, which we will do, all of this country, after the end of the war.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

What I hear you saying is that this is something that Russia has done in the past. I'm hearing that this is something that is designed to erase the Ukrainian nation, and that some of these children will be engaged in actually fighting Ukraine to help further erase the Ukrainian nation.

Is that a fair summary?

[Olga Aivazovska]

Yes, indeed.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

What happens to the children while they're in captivity?

[Andrii Mikheiev]

If I may please take the floor, if we are talking about the orphans and children deprived of parental care, they are being put in specialized facilities for orphans and similar categories of children. However, there were also cases of children who actually had families being deported away from their parents after their filtration process and then put into orphanages and other kinds of facilities.

After they are placed there, they are put through the Russian education programs and they are also put on the list to be adopted by Russian families.

There is one more important aspect. According to the latest amendments to the Russian legislation at this central level—amendments to the laws, amendments by presidential decree in the Russian Federation—the process of obtaining Russian citizenship by minors was facilitated. Currently children get Russian citizenship automatically or through application by the guardians or the care institutions.

Moreover, it's very important to say that according to the law, the new Russian citizens may not withdraw from their Russian citizenship until they fulfill their obligations to the Russian Federation in full, which means that, for instance, male Ukrainian children, who will now get Russian citizenship, theoretically may not withdraw from Russian citizenship in the future until they serve their military service.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

[Andrii Mikheiev]

That's generally what's happening.

Thank you.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Dyakuyu. Thank you. that's very helpful.

I think I have only about 30 or 45 seconds left.

Mr. Raymond, could you fill in the picture for those watching at home? What happens to these children?

[Nathaniel Raymond]

Well, let me tell you what we know and let me tell you what we don't know.

In the case of those in the re-education camps, they are not allowed to speak Ukrainian. If they had a phone, the phone was taken. In many cases, for those boys over the age of 13, we were seeing evidence of military training. In the case of one camp in Chechnya called Mountain Key, children were learning how to use firearms and operate military vehicles.

For the younger children, there is exposure to Russian folk songs, military history and visits to major battlefields. Among the children who have returned, the 300 mentioned earlier, there has been some allegation of physical abuse that forensically, from our perspective, has not been confirmed yet, but that's under investigation.

For children who are in fostering and adoption—and this was alluded to, I believe, by one of the other speakers—there is a cash incentive for these children to be adopted. It's $200 per month to up to $600, including bonuses for children with severe disabilities, so you're looking at an economic aspect—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Can you wrap it up, please? You have exceeded one minute.

[Nathaniel Raymond]

That's important to put it in context.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Raymond.

Mr. Trudel, you now have the floor for seven minutes.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to ask a question that is more or less related to today's topic, but that has been bothering me for a while now.

A year ago, at the beginning of the war in Ukraine, the subcommittee received a visit from Mr. Grandi, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. Mr. Grandi came to tell us that, in his opinion, the war in Ukraine was having a major impact on all refugee crises around the world. He said that all the governments and media outlets were concentrating solely on Ukraine, and that this had repercussions on other crises and other needs that might exist around the world.

My question is for Ms. Aivazovska and Mr. Mikheiev. Are the events in Israel and Palestine over the past three weeks having an impact on your conflict, because the world lens is less focused on Ukraine right now and is turned towards Palestine? Does this have an impact on the ground and on the involvement of governments in the war, in one way or another? Can any of you answer that question?

[Andrii Mikheiev]

I'm sorry, but could you please repeat the last part of the question?

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

The current conflict between Israel and Palestine is attracting global media attention, as well as the attention of governments in Europe, America and around the world, much like at the beginning of the war in Ukraine.

I would like to know if the attention paid to this new conflict is being felt on the ground, on the battles underway on Ukrainian territory. Is the fact that the entire world is no longer watching the conflict having an impact on the ground at this time?

[Olga Aivazovska]

I can answer, because it's a little bit of a political question rather than a legal one.

I believe that pain is the same everywhere. That's why we have sympathy for those civilians and children who are suffering because of other wars. At the same time, I strongly believe this is very dangerous for Ukraine and Ukrainian society, because without military aid and without financial aid, Ukraine will not have the capability to continue to defend itself and its own society.

You may know how many people are fighting now—we have an army with one million soldiers—but without military aid, this army will not have tools and equipment for not just counterattacks and campaigning but for protecting what we have already liberated, because Russia is in the stage of starting their bigger counterattack. Without fighter jets, without equipment that will be helpful for protecting those territories that are already liberated and for continuing counteroffensive attacks on the southern part of Ukraine, first of all, Ukraine will not save itself and its own society.

When the Ukrainian army liberated the territories not only in Kyiv but also in Kharkiv and in the southern part of Ukraine, we saw how many victims we had there without any access to the information on the ground.

That story about mass graves and tortured people who had any type of connection with the Ukrainian government or were related to the pro-Ukrainian position.... They were in danger. That's why military and financial aid is the main topic for us. It's about how to save and protect the people, how to stop this full-scale invasion on the ground and how to protect what we have already liberated.

I hope Canada will continue to support us. I just got back from D.C. a few days ago, where we had an advocacy mission. We tried to make people aware of why it's so important. We believe that Israel, Palestine and Ukraine do not have to be on the same page with regard to attention, but our sustainable and capable partners have to focus on both conflicts if they wish to support a world without war.

I'm sorry for this political statement, but it's about the suffering of civilians and protecting the children and people in need, for now. Please continue to support Ukraine. Please don't refocus from one topic to another, because all people are important, for sure. Ukraine is not just about news; Ukraine is about the ongoing war, and this war will end. The battle will end.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Raymond, if I understood correctly, some Ukrainian children have a different status. Children who have guardians, who have relatives, are stuck in Ukraine and sent to Russia.

How is consent given? Should we be talking about parental consent or kidnapping? In the case of orphaned Ukrainian children, would you use the term “abduction” to refer to what Russia is doing to those children?