Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 21st, 2023

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Time is up.

We will go to the third round for three minutes each. We will start with Ms. Damoff please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Jenkins, one of the things that I've seen is where the children themselves don't have a disability but the parent does. The child is thrust at a very young age into caring for a parent who is living with a disability. For example, it could be a land mine that has resulted in mom as a single caregiver looking out for a family, and all of a sudden the children are no longer able to go to school. We want all kids in school, and these aren't ones who are living with a disability themselves, but they are impacted by disability in the household. In certain countries it would be more prevalent than others. I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on reaching those kids.

[Robert Jenkins]

We talk about reaching the whole child and it's not easy. I worked in the education system. I'm passionate about the education sector. I'm all about learning, but I increasingly am recognizing that we can only get so far if we're just looking at the school. The child has to bridge themselves into the classroom. We need to look at the whole child, where the child lives and the overall support needs of the child and their family, and provide comprehensive support in order for this to be effective. That includes social protection systems more broadly.

While I'm speaking about this kind of approach to whole needs, it also links to engagement. I think it's absolutely critical that communities are bridged into the school system, and there's a partnership between families, parents, teachers at schools. We see that all over the world, and that will help to address this very important question that you're raising on particularly disadvantaged and marginalized families. If the school is seen as the centre of the community as a whole in partnership with all parents, if it itself is inclusive, then children will also be encouraged and the education will be inclusive.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I will go to Anita for the rest of my time. You have a minute.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

I would like to pick up on the issue of data collection, but I can't remember which witness—it might have been you, Mr. Shriver—said that 50% to 80% of these children are not in school. That's a big broad number, 50% to 80%. It's not very specific. Is that indicative of the fact that we really aren't systematically collecting this kind of data and information across the board? What can we do better?

I will turn that to Mr. Shriver.

[Timothy Shriver]

The data collection is very poor. It's better than it was 10 years ago. We know more national programs are collecting more data. We're starting to see some data on disability and these kinds of things, but these are broad estimates. I have a default towards action. I think we could spend another five or 10 years improving the data systems, and we should have some effort to improve the data systems because, otherwise, how are we going to know if we're successful or not? I think we all agree here that whether we measure or not we have plenty of work to do. I want to accept the friendly amendment from Ms. McPherson about this being political. I accept the idea and welcome the idea that this could become a source of political debate and contention, not because it creates tension or division, or winners or losers, but because it creates urgency and importance. That's my thing.

Mr. Lake asked, what can we do? What we need in most of these countries right now is trained teachers. We need a massive investment starting today. When I go knocking on the doors of education ministers, which I've done through our coalition that we're forming, a special coalition for inclusive education, I'm asking governments to put up money for inclusion, train the teachers, empower young people, empower families, allow for both sports and academic work to be done in schools, and commit to goals. We can do this. I would be happy to support the development of a medium-range plan on data collection and data improvement, but let's not be distracted from action.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Shriver. Your time is up.

Now I would like to invite Mr. Lake to take the floor for three minutes please.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

Three minutes will be tough. I just want to start by thanking all of the witnesses for coming. You're all friends and I look forward to the follow-up conversations from here.

I'm going to focus this question to Yasmine specifically, who is probably taking a deep breath right now wondering what I'm going to do. On the point of action, I'm just curious about what kind of commitment ECW would make right now at this point in time, November 21, 2023, to action specifically on disability-inclusive education. What commitment would Education Cannot Wait be prepared to make right now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Ms. Khochen, can you take the question please?

[Dr. Maha Khochen]

Yes, of course.

Thanks, Mr. Lake, for your question.

I think Education Cannot Wait has already made a strong commitment by targeting 10% of children with disabilities across the different funding windows we have. We already committed by signing the TES call to action on disability inclusion to ensure that our investments include mainstream disability inclusion, and that every single fund or investment also includes targeted interventions to include persons with disabilities.

It's important to keep our commitment and also to encourage others to commit to reaching persons with disabilities—mainly governments in countries where we work. If we don't look at governments, and invite and encourage them to sign the TES call to action, we will not move the needle on disability inclusion.

It's very important for us to also work hand in hand with governments, local organizations and other United Nations agencies, and to ensure there are sustainable efforts to mainstream disability inclusion, so it remains for the long term.

I hope I answered your question.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

I have a quick follow-up for Robert on that same question.

I believe in rapid incrementalism. I believe in the idea that we can take small steps quickly and create large action.

Robert, what small steps would you suggest governments might take in the next week or month to create some momentum towards meaningful action on this issue?

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

I'll give you one minute to answer.

[Robert Jenkins]

There are three things, I think.

As we plan for 2024 around the world, in all UNICEF country offices right now, we are having the conversation about what can be done immediately in this country. There's an input part to this. What different inputs can be provided? There's training teachers, providing specific materials such as digital, accessible textbooks, etc.

I think there's a process part to this, Mike. Are disabled children involved in the conversation? Are they participating? Are organizations working on this issue at the table? They need to be. There's a process part we can do right away.

Then, there are ultimately results. Are you measuring results for disabled children? How do they compare to other children? Are we doing all we can to make sure children with disabilities have the same chance of realizing their right to education that others do?

I think we can work on all three levels—inputs, process and, ultimately, results—right away.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins.

I now invite Mr. Trudel to take the floor for three minutes.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is an extremely broad and interesting topic.

I have a related question for Ms. Richler.

In my riding, there is a resource called “L'appart à moi”—my own apartment. It is a resource for adults with autism or intellectual disabilities that includes nine apartments for independent adults and a place to cook group meals and engage in activities.

Tenants of these apartments work in a place called “Les cuisiniers différents”—different cooks. Most of them prepare meals for underprivileged schools.

The adults who live there are extraordinary. They are a little more privileged than all people with autism or those living with a disability.

I even invited them to Parliament, and they came to watch question period, among other things.

This is not in the area of education, but it is still in the area of inclusion.

Of course, the waiting list to access this kind of adult resource is as long as your arm. There is a shortage, and that is a major challenge.

My question is more generally about the funding of this type of resource. How can we, in our society, promote inclusion? What can we do, as a country, to ensure that there are as few exclusions as possible, that we integrate these people and that they feel a part of society?

[Diane Richler]

I am Diane Richler responding.

Thank you very much.

I guess there are a couple of things. First of all, in Canada, the new disability benefit is going to make a difference for families. That's something very important, and Rob Jenkins made reference earlier to work that UNICEF is doing around social protection. In the same way that human rights are indivisible, the rights of people with disabilities are indivisible. I think it's really critical to look at the investments in social protection. Right now, most countries don't take into account the extra costs of disability. Whether they are issues that were raised by Ms. Damoff in terms of children who have to help care for parents, whether it's the need for prosthetic devices that aren't covered or whether it's the need for special materials, there are extra costs and some of the work that UNICEF is doing will help.

I'm going to take advantage of the floor for just one second to mention something related to an earlier question of yours. In francophone countries—this is may be a delicate thing to say because I know this is on the record—many of the francophone resource people come from countries that have a much more rigid approach to education. Canada does not. The approach to inclusion in Quebec, New Brunswick and elsewhere in Canada has a lot to offer internationally.

One problem we've seen as Inclusion International is that, when the francophone resource people come from countries that have a very rigid program, where kids are streamed at a very early age and where kids with disabilities are separated from their peers who don't have a disability, it sets the pattern. That's how the people in those countries are trained.

Again, Canada can change that if we play a role. Right now, we're not there, so other people are taking the lead and we're not influencing francophone countries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Ms. Richler and Ms. McPherson.

Thank you for your testimony and for your participation in the study on international disability-inclusive education.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, that was Mr. Trudel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

I'm sorry. I invite you, with honour, to take the floor for three minutes please, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I have a very quick question for you on some of the testimony you provided earlier, Ms. Richler. You talked about the SDGs, and we know they are universal. We know that Canada has signed onto them. As you mentioned, the Prime Minister has taken an extra interest in those.

Do you know, in either of the two voluntary national reviews Canada has undertaken, if education inclusion, or even people living with disabilities, has been mentioned in those voluntary national reviews?

[Diane Richler]

Related to that is the Transforming Education Summit that was held last year. Canada did not place emphasis on that. It's not something that's been paid attention to. There's been a lot of attention to gender, but unfortunately, despite the Charlevoix declaration mentioning the word “inclusive”, that hasn't translated into looking at those individual specific situations. We have a long way to go.

Unfortunately, even in the review of the SDGs, or the monitoring of the SDGs that is being done by UNESCO, there are no indicators that are the common indicators used to look at evaluating the SDG 4 that focuses on education. Even though there are indicators overall in the SDG 4 that deal with disability, when it comes to the ones that countries are paying attention to—there are 15 of them—they don't deal with disability.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Because they are universal, we are not meeting those targets in Canada either. That's also something that I think is key. This is not just a global issue. This is something that is supposed to....

[Diane Richler]

It is a domestic issue.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

One would think, too, the universality would mean that, even if it wasn't the indicator within goal 4, there should be other indicators included throughout the other 16 goals as well.