Evidence of meeting #41 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you.
If you don't mind, Ms. Sharma would like to respond to your question.
Ms. Sharma, you have the floor.
12:40 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Advocacy and Engagement, International Disability Alliance
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
I won't repeat what Ola has already said about social protection, but I do want to bring to the notice of this House a study that UNICEF and the World Bank conducted on the additional costs of accessing education for children with disabilities. I think that we have countries that have not taken those costs into account. If you look at the data that is coming out from different countries—because similar research is going on—you will see that it is evident that to be able to afford the kinds of additional costs that families with children with disabilities face, they would have to be in the top percentile of earners in the country. That is not the case because persons with disabilities and their families comprise 20% of the world's poorest. That huge gap is very evident.
I also want to flag the point about the lack of availability and accessibility of assistive technology here. Only 5% to 15% of those who need assistive technology actually have it. It's not just about availability; it's also about affordability. We don't have quality assistive technology available, which also really impacts and builds on the cycle of poverty and how all these multi-dimensional factors prevent children with disabilities from going to school.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
Program Director, Education and Science, International Development Research Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
One of the other speakers spoke about the choices that people with scarce resources have to make and choices about which kids go to school—ones with disabilities, and maybe boys instead of girls—and that challenge.
The other challenge I want to talk about in terms of poverty, which is kind of the subject of this committee overall.... One aspect of poverty is a lack of understanding and awareness of the challenges that different groups face and seeing them as part of a neurodiverse paradigm, rather than as disabilities, something that's sort of backward, or a gap and so forth.
I think the response is education, and it is overall, even in this country.... My son has a learning disability. In grade 6, I remember the teacher saying to me that I really should not be putting him into the college preparation programs because he wasn't going to succeed. I think it's education that changes that mindset in Canada, as well as in developing countries, and that's an aspect of poverty we need to address. He's in his second year of his grad school in international affairs now, and he did the college programs.
I think that aspect is really critical for us to see this not as something that's special, or as special needs on the side, but as people who have the same capabilities as everybody else but need some level of support to succeed in society.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Now I would like to invite Mr. Lake to take the floor for five minutes, please.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Thank you.
To that point, when I think about my son, I often talk about the idea of mitigating challenges to unlock potential, just like we all have our challenges and want help to deal with our challenges so that we can recognize our full potential.
As I think about inclusive education and action steps that we've talked about.... I'll throw forward a brainstorming idea. You have this Washington Group tool that helps to assess.
Naser, I'm going to come to you on this.
Let's say we put a lot of money into community health workers with World Vision, Plan, Save the Children, UNICEF and other organizations that are out there on the ground, meeting families and meeting kids all around the world...already funded by taxpayers and organizations from around the world.
Imagine if, potentially, we could teach those community health workers to understand what physical, intellectual or developmental disability might look like and give them the tool to help do some assessment of some of these families, so that you can give the families or the individuals, to some degree, an explanation of what's happening. Of course, it's not too much of a stretch to then imagine what school or some form of inclusion might look like, once you've generated some data at that individual level—and then the aggregate level, of course.
From my understanding, StatsCan is a part of the Washington Group. I think they are coming to the committee next week, so we'll get a chance to ask about the tool.
When I think about IDRC and the function that IDRC has, it's a research function, an information function and an evidence function. Therefore, as you listen to that kind of brainstorming, it's not a stretch to imagine a place where you put a research function on top of that to gather and assess that evidence, and see what incremental next steps could be taken quickly to generate meaningful action right now, or is it?
12:45 p.m.
Program Director, Education and Science, International Development Research Centre
No. The Washington tool sounds fantastic to me. A lot of the innovations we're testing were developed by community-based organizations like World Vision. If there really is a proven innovation that can have an impact, that's the sort of thing....
We do these calls. What is working? Where is it working? Prove it's working. As you said, let's test it and scale it in different contexts, because you have to adapt it to the different contexts and train people in those up to 80 countries we're working in, seeking to scale it so that it's sustainable.
It sounds fantastic. We'd have to look at it carefully. There's a certain way we operate in terms of competitive calls and making sure that the research is really quality and so forth. However, on the surface of what you're describing, Mr. Lake, it sounds like a really interesting initiative.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
I have a minute and a half left in my time.
Nafisa and Dorodi, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
I will let you know that in the last committee meeting, I think we got three organizations to commit to looking at the call to action and potentially signing on. We're still focusing on the call to action that you worked so hard on.
Do you have thoughts on that?
Nafisa has her hand up.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Director, Inclusive Education, Light for the World
Thank you.
I want to add something on the importance of data. I think it's really important to generate the data, but not just about where the people with disabilities are and what their functional issues are. I think it's also really important to create data on what works and what's not working in terms of practices and approaches to support students with disabilities. I think that's really vital, as is a kind of mediated understanding of the data.
We've been working with the governments of South Sudan, Mozambique, Burkina Faso and Ethiopia to really understand and interpret the data. This is actually a challenge. Now that you have the data, what do you do with it? How do you organize your interventions to be most impactful in supporting students, based on the data you've collected? This is where support is really required.
I'm fully with you that if we can get all development and community-based organizations to collect data and to sit down and analyze it and, in a participatory way, to design programs that respond to the needs, I think we will make a big step change.
Again, on the call to action, I really feel that this is a wonderful opportunity, with the disability summit coming up soon, for Canada to champion it, to take action around it, to endorse the call to action and to understand what this means among education advisers who are based in countries representing the Government of Canada. They need to understand what disability inclusion is, what disability-inclusive education is, what they can do and how they can advise the governments they are working with. I think these are practical things that need to happen. Guidance notes need to be created around teacher education and all these different subtopics so that people are equipped to provide technical support and leadership on this topic of disability-inclusive education.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Lake.
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you may take the floor for five minutes.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Paré, can you tell us about the disparities within the minority group of children living with disabilities when it comes to academic success?
You said it's not a homogeneous group, but how much disparity is there in terms of success within this group?
12:50 p.m.
Full Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I don't have statistics to give you for different groups of children living with disabilities. What I do see, in Canada anyway, is that a good proportion of children with disabilities are not succeeding, and I'm sure it's the same internationally. In Canada, they're at least in school, but in Quebec, for example, a quarter of the students we call students living with disabilities or students with learning or adjustment difficulties, or EHDAA, leave without a diploma. That's a huge proportion, compared to the rest of the population.
That's where we need to do some research, among other things, to find out if there's a particular group that makes the statistics what they are. Is it easier for others? Certainly, since there is a wide variety of children living with disabilities. Even within the same group, the severity of disability can vary widely. The autism spectrum, for example, is very broad. So it's important to know which children are graduating, but also where they're going next. We're pushing kids down certain paths that don't give them as many options in life after school to find a job, be independent, etc.
That's why research is important, but unfortunately I don't have any figures to give you.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
In short, I conclude that we need data.
Mr. Faruqui, I think you'll find my question interesting, at least, I hope so.
How important is it to ensure that the funding criteria for programs are flexible in order to adapt to the mores and cultural particularities of the countries in which these programs are set up?
I imagine that we don't proceed in the same way in India and Chad, for example. Am I wrong?
12:50 p.m.
Program Director, Education and Science, International Development Research Centre
Thank you very much.
Of course, we have to adapt to the local contexts and local cultures of each country we work in.
Did I understand your question correctly?
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Is it a challenge to convince the people in the department who implement programs? Is it ever a challenge for you to get them to be flexible? Normally, one doesn't interact in one country in the same way as in another. Do you see this as a problem or not?
12:50 p.m.
Program Director, Education and Science, International Development Research Centre
There are also sometimes differences within the same country, because culture varies from region to region.
That said, I don't think it's a big challenge. It's more a matter of how we work.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
So it's just the training of your people that is different from country to country. Okay, I understand that.
Ms. Paré, to draw a parallel, there are cultural differences here in Canada when it comes to dealing with children living with disabilities. Do we work the same way with everyone, no matter who they are?
12:50 p.m.
Full Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
What difference are you talking about, between what and who?
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
When we set up a program focused on children living with disabilities, do we take into account their cultural differences? I don't know, I'm just asking.
Do we work differently from one community to another, with francophones or anglophones, or perhaps with first nations people?
Are there cultural differences? If so, do we adjust well to these differences? Do we need to make any improvements when it comes to adapting to the cultural particularities of the children we work with?
12:50 p.m.
Full Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's important to be aware of differences and realize that there are cultural and linguistic differences. Do we really do this in the field? I haven't seen it.
On the other hand, we can say that there really are cultural differences, differences in culture and education, differences from one school to another, from one region to another, from one province to another. It depends a lot on the people who work with them: the teacher, the school principal, the person who provides the service. It also comes back to the question of training. Depending on what you say, it's important to take cultural and other differences into account.
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
When you work with parents, among others, I imagine you don't work the same way as with—
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Yes, of course.
When working with parents, among others, I imagine you don't work the same way with parents from different cultures. Is this an important thing to take into account for the child's well-being and to take them further on their journey?
12:55 p.m.
Full Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Of course. In Canada especially, you have to take into account that there are a lot of newcomers, new Canadians, and that these people have a lot of difficulty with the education system, which, all the same, is a bit rigid with its procedures. Newly arrived parents feel very intimidated by this system.