Evidence of meeting #53 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was region.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:35 p.m.
Chairperson, Ethio-Canadians for Human Rights
If you don't bring both, there is no reason for any negotiation at all.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Mr. Biru, I'll go to you. To ensure that these discussions move forward and that the hostilities we have seen over the course of the past two years do not continue, what is required? What is the path forward?
5:35 p.m.
Former Interim Chair of the Ethiopian Prime Minister's Economic Advisory Council and former Deputy Global Manager of the International Economic Comparison Program at the World Bank, As an Individual
I think Ethiopia's political problem lies with three tribal groups—the Amhara, Tigray and Oromo—but Ethiopia has 84 different tribes or ethnic groups. The only way this process can move is to move the centre of gravity of the political process away from the Amhara-Oromo-Tigray nexus. Historically, these groups have animosity, and in particular, the animosity has become worse over the last 30 years and since the Tigray, or the northern, war. What we see, when we bring these groups together, when now we say, “The Amhara should have been involved in the process,” I don't think that would have made any difference. The platform needs to change. The paradigm needs to change outside of the current tribal issue so that the people we bring to the table are not talking about, “My people...”.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Excuse me, the time is up. Can you please wrap up? I'm sorry.
Now I invite Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe to take the floor for five minutes, please.
June 11th, 2024 / 5:35 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. There are opposing views, and I think that's obvious today.
We've heard little from the Tigrayans' representatives so far, Mr. Gebremariam. Since the beginning of this meeting, we've been hearing that it is not the Tigrayans who are suffering a genocide, but rather the Amharas. How do you respond to that? I would like to hear your views on that.
5:35 p.m.
Former Chair and Current Board Member, Security and Justice for Tigrayans Canada
I'm sorry, but can you repeat that, sir?
5:35 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Chair, my time will not be affected by the need to repeat, will it? Thank you.
Ms. Gebremedhin, I see you want to say something.
5:35 p.m.
Independent Researcher and Human Rights Defender, As an Individual
The Tigray people have indeed been under the state-wide genocide since November 2020. However, we do recognize the fact that there is no peace and stability across the country, including in Amhara. We do understand that civilians across the country are being targeted by the federal government alongside different political actors in the country, which is why we continue to call for an internationally mandated justice and accountability mechanism that would not only look into the crimes that are being perpetrated across the country but also hold the actors accountable. That is why the Tigray people, alongside our academicians and intellectuals, have been pushing for the mandate of the ICHREE to be extended. However, fellow Ethiopians have been working against that.
It's really encouraging to hear people being interested in justice and accountability because I do agree with the fact that people in Amhara, Oromo and Tigray are suffering. Let's not confuse the fact that the people of Tigray have faced a genocide that resulted in the massacre, in days, of over half a million people, and the people of Tigray still continue to be under the illegal occupation of all warring actors.
I also want to bring to your attention the fact that Tselemti and Raya are indeed parts of Tigray. They do not belong to the Amhara region. Hence, why there isn't really any proof that there is a continued massacre laid against people who are not from Tigray in those particular areas, but all of this can be settled if there is an internationally mandated independent mechanism that will look into the crimes that are being alleged here today.
5:35 p.m.
Former Chair and Current Board Member, Security and Justice for Tigrayans Canada
I think it must be understood that the people of Tigray were under a 360° siege. Tigray was under siege. That must be clearly understood. During that siege, from every direction in Ethiopia, the Amhara, Oromo, Afar, Eritrean, Somalian and, of course, Ethiopian forces—all of them—were against Tigray, and Tigray was under siege. It was blocked: The Internet and all basic services were blocked completely, so that's why the situation in Tigray is very different in terms of the intensity and the degree of atrocities. Also, it is only in the Tigray that foreign forces came to fight, to commit genocide against the people of Tigray—not in Amhara, not anywhere—but I agree, I sympathize, that there is no peace. I have sympathy for the Amhara and Oromo peoples, but the thing is, it must be understood that genocide was committed against the people of Tigray.
5:40 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Gebremariam.
Mr. Biru, you mentioned a New Lines Institute report that you think is wrong. You said it was based on false testimony or, at least, testimony that did not necessarily appear to be true.
Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the U.S. State Department have also produced reports. Do you think those entities' conclusions are wrong as well?
5:40 p.m.
Former Interim Chair of the Ethiopian Prime Minister's Economic Advisory Council and former Deputy Global Manager of the International Economic Comparison Program at the World Bank, As an Individual
No. To be clear, what all of the other international organizations have said is that when it comes to atrocities in Tigray, Tigrayans, the Eritreans, the Amhara and the federal government have committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, crimes of starvation and war as war tools.
In the meantime, the same institutions have said that the Eritrean forces did exactly the same. Actually, Amnesty International says that Tigrayan forces do not have an iota of humanity.
5:40 p.m.
Former Interim Chair of the Ethiopian Prime Minister's Economic Advisory Council and former Deputy Global Manager of the International Economic Comparison Program at the World Bank, As an Individual
Okay. When it comes to genocide, no credible report has come claiming there is a genocide in Amhara or genocide in Tigray.
5:40 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I have one last question: Are all stakeholders equally at fault, or is one people or nation more deeply affected than another?
5:40 p.m.
Former Interim Chair of the Ethiopian Prime Minister's Economic Advisory Council and former Deputy Global Manager of the International Economic Comparison Program at the World Bank, As an Individual
This is why I say that the international community should not be in the business of arbitrating genocide and counter-genocide claims. What we need is an international investigation.
Now what we see is Tigrayans and Amhara activists claiming genocide was committed to their people. No credible international organization has come and claimed, except for activists of this group. This doesn't help the country.
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you for your answer.
Mr. Johns, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you to all of the witnesses for your important testimony, your courage and for representing so many people who have been subjected to terrible human rights violations and atrocities that are happening in Ethiopia.
Mr. Berhe, you haven't had a chance to speak yet. Your group, the Ethio-Canadians for Human Rights, represents a true cross-section of Ethiopian ethnolinguistic groups.
We heard about the failure of the Pretoria agreement on the internal conflict. We're really hoping at this committee today to find how we can best support getting peace and stability in Ethiopia.
Maybe you can talk about your view of the situation in Ethiopia that is so dire.
What is the best way forward to resolve the country's political ills?
5:40 p.m.
Yohannes Berhe Member, Ethio-Canadians for Human Rights
First of all, I share the same heritage with Ms. Meaza and Mr. Kidane. From what I see, the claim about genocide in Tigray or any other place sometimes misses the point. First of all, they are entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.
The facts on the ground are completely different. At this time, there is a cessation of conflict in Tigray. The TPLF has total control in Tigray, yet there is famine in Tigray and they still accuse the other parts of Ethiopia, like Amhara or Afar.
The sole responsibility, when it comes to Tigray at this moment, is with TPLF. As a matter of fact, TPLF is with the Abiy government. They are the deciding factor now.
This is what disappoints me. They don't talk about what is happening now to Tigrayans, who are suffering now from the famine.
TPLF, for the last 30 years, was in power. For 27 years, they were in power in the central government. The sole power for the last 30 years, plus in Tigray, has been the TPLF. Are Tigrayans better off now than 30 years ago? No. They are worse off now and the sole responsibility is with TPLF.
Also, they are not partners in peace. If we want peace, we have to make sure that.... First of all, the Tigrayans in Amhara share culture. They have been living together for centuries. Most Tigrayans go to other parts of Ethiopia to make a living. My family went from Tigray to other parts of Ethiopia and they lived peacefully.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
I appreciate that.
Mr. Kebbede, can you talk about the Ethiopian constitution of 1995? Is that the root of the problem in Ethiopia? If so, what needs to be done?
5:45 p.m.
Member, Ethio-Canadians for Human Rights
Well, the root cause of the current crisis in Ethiopia is the constitution that was adopted in 1995. As Dr. Biru said, it entitles nations and nationalities to full rights, while denying rights to individuals. Can you tell me in what part of the world a constitution begins with “We, the Nations [and] Nationalities of” this country? Our own country, Canada, says, “We, the people of Canada”. It does not grant rights to groups or communities.
Individual rights are violated because of the constitution. In no other country can you find a constitution that grants secession or independence to ethnic groups. It's only in Ethiopia. Article 39 grants full independence to any ethnic group. We have a country with a population of 120 million and 80-plus ethnic groups, but the constitution grants regional statehood to nine regions. Does this mean we can have 80-plus provinces or 80-plus regions? What would those nine regions do?
The current crisis is because the constitution violates individual rights. Individual rights have been removed from the constitution.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you.
I have one more quick question for Mr. Jemere.
You know that Canada provides substantial aid to Ethiopia. The Prime Minister just met with Prime Minister Ahmed.
Given the situation in the country now, should Canada stop aid to Ethiopia? In a very short response, what can Canada do?
5:45 p.m.
Chairperson, Ethio-Canadians for Human Rights
Thank you very much. This is a very interesting question and I can answer it very easily.
In my own opinion, and in our opinion, I don't think the Canadian government has to stop aid to the Ethiopian people and the Ethiopian government. However, we have to differentiate between humanitarian aid and development aid. In our opinion, development aid has to be stopped, whereas humanitarian aid has to be enhanced, because we are interested in saving lives, not killing people.
That's how I see it.