Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 8th, 2024

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to say that I'm really disappointed. He's not here to hear me say this, but Mr. Majumdar has used this meeting to rage-farm on Twitter with misinformation.

[An hon. member]

He's smiling about it.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

He somehow thinks that's funny. He's posted, “Why does Justin Trudeau recognize a defeated thug dictator over the Venezuelans people's choice?” Just to make sure that misinformation doesn't stay out there, we have not recognized the “defeated thug dictator”. In fact, Minister Joly issued a statement. She also issued a second statement with the United States and 30 other countries that unequivocally condemns the ongoing and escalating repression in Venezuela by the Maduro regime, particularly in the aftermath of the elections. We've also condemned the use of the repressive tactics by Venezuelan authorities.

I'm disappointed that we're not using this meeting to collectively recognize the human rights violations that are happening in Venezuela and to together come up with solutions.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Chair, I have a point of order.

First of all, Ms. Damoff made mention of my absence. I want to make sure people know I'm right here. Second, I think we've been hearing a lot of testimony from our witnesses—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's not a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Excuse me.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

We've been hearing a lot of testimony from our witnesses, and—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's not a point of order.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

—I would request that the member focus on not wasting their time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

It does not go with the sense of a point of order. I'm sorry.

Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Marin, I want to turn to you. On your website, you've written about the co-operation between Venezuela, Cuba and Nicaragua, and that it's not only military and ideological but there's also a coordination in the position of messaging on social media networks like Twitter.

Can you explain how that coordination is done and what kind of messaging is put out there?

[Maria Marin]

[Witness spoke in Spanish, interpreted as follows:]

Of course.

We began in 2019 to monitor Venezuela via the conversation on X, which is most used for political content. In 2020, we saw how the digital communication strategies of the regimes in Venezuela, Cuba and Nicaragua were interconnected. They amplified hashtags like “against North American sanctions”—or European—blaming them for being responsible for crises. When there are conflicts in the region or elections, the communication is coordinated to amplify common messages for them.

We've seen how there is a pattern in the creation of laws to restrict content on social media, as mentioned by Iria earlier. We've seen how these governments co-operate and learn from each other. As with Sputnik, there are classes offered to communications students in universities in Nicaragua. In Venezuela's case, there's Chinese technology for social control, for surveillance and to promote disinformation propaganda online, but these narratives in Spanish are made stronger by authorities like Cuba or Nicaragua, and the discourse internally in Venezuela amplifies, in the regime's communications, positions that are in favour of other authoritarian states, like Russia and its invasion of Ukraine.

A campaign online was saying that what Russia was doing was for de-nazification, promoting propaganda as official information on social media. This is very dangerous, especially when there are no mechanisms to counterbalance these advanced structures for communication.

This affects information, and there is the intention to manipulate all of the information that they can't control directly. This is done by Venezuela's regime, but it's also coordinated with the Cuban regime and the Nicaraguan regime, and it's assisted by Russia and China.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

We're studying, at the public safety committee right now, Russian influence on social media. I'm seeing similarities in terms of.... When people are getting all of their information from social media, they can be easily influenced by what they see because they don't have a verified source of information through which they can filter what they're seeing.

Is that a fair representation?

[Maria Marin]

[Witness spoke in Spanish, interpreted as follows:]

Absolutely.

The most recent blocking of websites in Venezuela has been of news fact-checkers, not only independent media—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Just a quick answer, please. The time is up. You can have a few seconds.

[Maria Marin]

[Witness spoke in Spanish, interpreted as follows:]

Basically, the most recent measures by the regime have led to blocking fact-checkers and news checkers. This shows that it's not just propaganda online but also disinformation. That's what they want to see in the ecosystem online.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

Mr. Lake, please, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to follow up on Ms. Damoff's point, if I can.

This is a committee where we generally decide what we're going to study by consensus. It's interesting that we're studying democracy here. Agreeing what we're going to study does not mean we have to take the exact same position the Trudeau government is taking. In fact, our position on this is very different, and it's very clear. Our foreign affairs shadow minister, Michael Chong, right away in August, tweeted, “Conservatives call on the Trudeau government to: recognize the opposition won the Venezuelan election, cut off all contact with Maduro’s authoritarian representatives, and sanction all individuals complicit with this subversion of Venezuelan democracy.” We have a clear position in our party, which is the official opposition.

When there are clear distinctions between our party's positions, it is our job to bring them up and hold the government to account for them. That is what Mr. Majumdar was doing earlier.

In contrast, what the Canadian government has basically said on the website is that the Maduro government is bad, but then it's gone on, leading with the section that says what Canada is doing about it. It has not said it recognizes that the opposition won the Venezuelan election. In fact, what it said is that we have to, “find a negotiated solution to the crisis”. It said, “Canada is supportive of the negotiation process” and “We strongly encourage the parties to take part in good faith”, as though the parties are equal in this situation. The parties are not equal in this situation. The Maduro regime is a partner. Its allies are Russia, Iran and China. It's very clear. That's the quote I read from the BBC earlier. We've said, as a party, that Canada should recognize that the opposition won the Venezuelan election.

I just want your thoughts on the importance of that in this conversation.

[Maria Marin]

[The witness spoke in Spanish, interpreted as follows:]

It's very important, as it has been mentioned, to maintain a position of respect for human rights and the universal value of respect for democracy in Venezuela. One of the positions in my remarks that could help is, for example, asking for more transparency and support for social media. In Venezuela's case today, Cuba and Nicaragua often wash their hands with the excuse that there's a language barrier. Very little is done. A lot more could be done when it comes to technology. This is a means to an end. These platforms.... As a government, you could helps us reduce the gap in access to information. That's one of the first measures we could attempt to promote in this space.

As a region, access for researchers is very limited by these platforms. They only allow access to organizations like non-profits in the United States or in Europe. It makes it much more complicated for researchers who don't speak English or who are outside of the European or American ecosystems. It's much more difficult for us to document these actions. That's one of the measures that could be taken that everybody could agree on. Ask for more support and transparency from social media platforms.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

On that issue of social media, to what extent is the word getting out to the Venezuelan people in Venezuela that the opposition won the election? To what extent is that message being subverted?

[Maria Marin]

[Witness spoke in Spanish, interpreted as follows:]

I think it's pretty consistent that Venezuelans haven't stopped informing themselves, despite all of the repression and despite all of the measures. We have continued to look for information through family members outside of Venezuela, who have become a bridge to accessing information. I think this will continue, along with the work from civil society and journalists, despite all of the limitations.

These efforts continue to be made to document what has happened in Venezuela.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I want to circle back for some evidence.

It was suggested by colleagues around the table.... I'd like to invite my colleague MP Damoff to table the official statement by the Government of Canada that recognizes—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's not a point of order.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

—the opposition victory and—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's not a point of order.