Evidence of meeting #6 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was news.
A recording is available from Parliament.
7:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Mr. Cooper, I think we can still try. Let's just give it a shot and we'll see what it's like and if the interpreters can pick it up.
7:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Okay.
We have seen a systematic campaign to dismantle democratic institutions in Hong Kong since 2020, including a significant media crackdown including, as Mr. Leung pointed out, on Apple Daily in June 2021 followed by Stand News and then Citizen News. Citizen News shut down citing the closure of Stand News as the main reason. Ronson Chan, the head of the Hong Kong Journalism Association and a former editor of Stand News, said, with respect to the national security law, “There's very little room given by the law. If you are not in trouble yet, the authorities will get to you at some point”.
Would you concur that this is the environment journalists face in Hong Kong today? More broadly speaking, you have been a journalist in Hong Kong since 2013, so I think it would be helpful if you could perhaps walk through how the landscape in Hong Kong has changed over that period of time.
7:05 p.m.
Former Reporter, Ming Pao Daily, Hong Kong, As an Individual
I absolutely go with Mr. Chan's comment.
Can you hear me okay?
7:05 p.m.
Former Reporter, Ming Pao Daily, Hong Kong, As an Individual
The point is that I think censorship is the reason that so many journalists chose to leave their careers and Hong Kong. If there were a red line that we know, then we could at least know where the red line is and then maybe we'll self-censor ourselves, but the problem is that we don't know where the red line is. For example, the authorities are charging media outlets for seditious comments, but, actually, that was a law that was in effect before 1997. It was the law for people who become seditious against the Queen. The problem is that if they cannot find the right law, they will find one that suits them, no matter if it is historical or what.
I've been a journalist since 2015, just right after the social movement that started in 2014, and in my experience the relationship between the authorities and journalists is quickly deteriorating. They don't talk anymore. We always argue that they make a request that—I'm sorry, when I'm nervous my English gets real bad—is unreasonable. We have to stand 100 metres from the scene so we cannot film what's happening.
I think it's going to get worse. Actually, I should not be one who appears in front of you today. The thing is the men and women who are still fighting to save what's left in Hong Kong they cannot speak for themselves without bearing the risk of breaching so-called national security. That is the reason why, as a former journalist, I'm speaking in front of you.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you for that.
Can you speak to some of the tactics the police are using to suppress the free press and to attack journalists. We've certainly seen detentions for which, I believe, the maximum penalty is life in prison, under the national security law. But can you just elaborate on some of the other measures the regime is taking that are having a chilling effect on the state of independent journalism in Hong Kong?
7:10 p.m.
Former Reporter, Ming Pao Daily, Hong Kong, As an Individual
They jailed the top chiefs, such as Jimmy Lai, or the editors of Stand News. That's the top one. Like me, I worked on the front line during 2019 about the physical attack [Inaudible—Editor]—
7:10 p.m.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
On a point of order, Mr. Chair.
The interpretation stopped working 30 seconds ago. Unfortunately, I cannot hear Mr. Leung's answers.
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Mr. Leung, unfortunately we're having technical challenges again.
Could I just ask if you could kindly prepare a response to the question just posed to you and we will ensure that Mr. Cooper does receive it.
7:10 p.m.
Former Reporter, Ming Pao Daily, Hong Kong, As an Individual
Yes. I'm sorry about that.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
I have another minute, okay.
I will, then, ask, and maybe I'll follow up with the witness, Madam Boniadi.
I do have some questions for you on the situation in Iran, but since we just have a very limited period of time, would you agree the human rights situation on the ground in Iran has deteriorated since Raisi was installed?
7:10 p.m.
Actress and Ambassador, Amnesty International United Kingdom, As an Individual
Yes, I do think that Ebrahim Raisi....
The election last year, which had the lowest turnout in the past 43 years, is very telling. People are completely disgruntled.
As the logic goes, there's nothing wrong with a democracy that can't be fixed with what is right with a democracy. The opposite is true with a country like Iran, where the very pillars of the system prevent the wrongs from being made right.
Unfortunately, that's true, but whether people call themselves “hard-liners” or “reformists”...otherwise, after 43 years, reform would have happened.
Do I think it has deteriorated? Yes. It's like saying it's gone from an “F” to even worse than that. The system is completely broken. As the daughter of former president Rafsanjani said, there is a huge disillusionment with the system, because there's no way to fix it.
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
7:10 p.m.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank our three witnesses. I'm sorry I couldn't hear Mr. Leung, because his opening remarks seemed very interesting.
Ms. Boniadi, during the pandemic, the Iranian state reportedly expelled the non-governmental organization Doctors Without Borders from its territory. You must be aware of this.
Do you have any idea what the Iranian state's motives were?
They expelled an organization that provides information to people, both in Iran and elsewhere, about the human rights situation there. What message does that send?
7:15 p.m.
Actress and Ambassador, Amnesty International United Kingdom, As an Individual
Thank you very much.
I wish I could answer that question, but the truth of the matter is that the government, Iranian authorities, prioritize revolutionary ideology before the well-being of the people. That is what the Iranian people are facing. There is no real interest in protecting the Iranian people. The real interest of the Iranian authorities is protecting the revolutionary ideology, the revolution itself.
It's telling that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the IRGC, is tasked with protecting the revolution. The words “Iran” or “Iranian” aren't even in the acronym. That should tell you everything about how these authorities, the Islamic Republic, feel about Iran and the Iranian people.
What I will say is that decisions made inside Iran have not benefited the people. Even when there was sanctions relief the first time around under President Obama, the money that went to Iran didn't reap any benefits for the Iranian people. Money was still going to Hamas and Hezbollah and Assad. Nothing really changed on the ground as far as human rights go in any tangible way. The people didn't reap the benefits.
For the same reason that U.S. vaccines, western vaccines, were banned from entering the country, these people are not interested in the well-being of the Iranian people.
7:15 p.m.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you, Ms. Boniadi.
Are you familiar with the case of Nasrin Sotoudeh, an Iranian human rights lawyer? Are you familiar with this case? Can you tell us a little bit about it?
7:15 p.m.
Actress and Ambassador, Amnesty International United Kingdom, As an Individual
Nasrin Sotoudeh is an extraordinary human rights lawyer who has unjustly received 38 years simply because she has protected and defended her clients.
She tried to use the law as much as she can. The penal code isn't very friendly towards women in Iran. She's used to going with that and tries to find ways to defend her clients legally. Every time, the door has been closed in her face. She has been sent to jail, yet she keeps going. I know she's on temporary leave from prison, but she's still serving her 38-year sentence.
Of course, she's internationally renowned and celebrated. She's one of the biggest names as far as human rights defenders inside the country. She's always been a pillar of strength and a role model for everyone else.
At the heart of what she's saying is that women and men should be treated equally. The Iranian penal code simply doesn't offer that. It's still based on sharia law and women are seen as half the value of men before the law inside Iran.
Much like Narges and others, the injustice towards women far outweighs the injustice towards men inside the country as far as sentencing. For example, a woman who is campaigning against compulsory hijab can receive 18 years in prison, whereas a man who kills his daughter in an “honour killing” can receive just months or a few years.
There's no real justice for women. Nasrin has been at the forefront of the fight.
7:15 p.m.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Boniadi.
Ms. Ressa, you spoke briefly earlier about the case of the prisoner of conscience Leila de Lima.
Could you please tell us more about it?
7:15 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer and President, Rappler
Senator de Lima is now campaigning from prison. The charges against her when she was imprisoned in February 2017 were largely brought by convicts in prison who were given some kind of incentive by the government. Many of them have now disappeared.
She remains in prison. Part of the reason seems to be based on the actions of President Duterte and his words, which were that she had used her position in the senate to begin investigations into the brutal drug war. He had threatened her; she was arrested and is now in prison without bail.
It happened so early—in 2017—that even journalists were stunned by this. I thought that if a government is doing this, there must be something there. Then, of course, when the charges against me were just lies, I began to realize later on that this is a pattern and law has been weaponized.
7:20 p.m.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Oh, my God.
How has the Republic Act 11479, also known as the Anti-Terrorism Act, 2020, affected peace activists and human rights defenders?
Can you answer in 12 seconds, please? I'm sorry.