Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Frances Hui]

Yes, I would say definitely—and not just with insurance companies. I think it's with a lot of the private corporations that are not controlled or monitored or required by law to register their activities with the Chinese and Hong Kong governments. Yes, I think they are....

The Hong Kong and Chinese governments continuously send warnings to private corporations and companies to coerce them to co-operate with them to commit transnational repression on people who have left Hong Kong and China. That's happening in a lot of cases that we have seen.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe.

I would like to invite Mr. Johns to take the floor for seven minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Technical difficulty—Editor] witnesses for their testimony.

I want to start with Ms. Hui.

First, I want to thank you for your courage for sharing your lived experience. If you feel comfortable, can you speak about the mental health impact that the repressive tactics you've experienced have had both on you and on your loved ones?

I know that you're in the U.S., and it is different. However, can you also talk about what supports are available to individuals dealing with these extremely challenging stressors and maybe what gaps you think need to be filled?

[Frances Hui]

I mentioned earlier that there are a lot of psychological impacts that transnational repression has on victims. Personally, I think it creates a lot of anxiety. The moment I learned about the bounty that was placed on my head, there was a flood of anxiety and paranoia that I should perhaps up my home security. I had to set up cameras around my house to avoid break-ins. I remember in the first few weeks that, when I walked out of my house, I would always be very cautious about my surroundings.

I think that's absurd because people like me, who have left Hong Kong or an authoritarian state, we come here to seek a safe haven, refuge from authoritarian rule. We are seeing that, although we're allowed to stay, these safe havens are becoming increasingly unsafe because of the transnational repression. There is an impact on a personal level and there are impacts on communities because there is a climate of fear making people scared to speak up. They start to silence themselves. They stay away from absorbing any news or information about their home. They cut ties with each other, especially with those who are targeted.

I remember when I received a bounty, some of my friends reached out to me and said, “Frances, I'm sorry. I have to unfriend you on social media because we're afraid to be associated with you.” I understand that because that fear is valid, that fear is from this transnational repression. I'm sure they would also be targeted because they're associated with me. There are impacts on the community. It's a whole strategy to break down community efforts against the regime.

About the support that I receive in the U.S., I think it was really helpful when I was facing these threats and intimidation. The investigative law enforcement agencies, they would reach out to me and allow me to know some of the unclassified information, so that I was aware of the threats that I was facing and so that I could ask them what kinds of things I should do to protect myself. They would teach me and give me training about how I could protect myself to ensure my safety. I think that's very helpful, and I think this is something Canada should also provide—that is, victim support and an exchange of intelligence information with the community as well.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'd like to elaborate on that a little.

Do you feel that women dissidents facing transnational repression experience unique threats? I think you've identified some of that. Gender-based violence is still, sadly, pervasive in society. You've described some pretty frightening encounters. What more can be done?

You talked about some of what can be done to ensure the safety of and prevent the silencing of women political activists and human rights defenders.

Uma, if you want, you could start, and then I'll go to Ms. Hui.

[Uma Ruthiramoorthy]

Do you mean in terms of what's happening here in terms of gender violence?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Yes, in terms of women who are facing transnational repression, how their experience is unique.

[Uma Ruthiramoorthy]

It is definitely unique because there's always this fear when you travel into Sri Lanka that something might happen to you, or if you decide to do any sort of humanitarian work, there's always a possibility that you'll be detained as soon as you enter the country. There's no way of knowing when you would be released, and there's a possibility of being tortured.

Obviously, gender violence is at the heart of this issue, especially for women working in this field. For me, personally, I have not been doing this for very long. I've only been doing it for a few years, but when we travelled to the UN, to Geneva this February, we were meant to represent witnesses with the committee on enforced disappearances, and it just turned out at the very last minute that none of our witnesses were able to attend. Excuses were given as to why each witness couldn't attend. We were made to feel like something could potentially happen to us. One witness wasn't able to come because of travel issues, and someone's car broke down. We were very much made to wonder if something was going to happen to us to stop us from going to the UN.

As women, we are constantly in fear working in this realm. Individuals in our organization have been listed on the Sri Lanka gazette. That's always something, this pending fear for anyone working in this realm, that the moment you get on that gazette, that's it—your life is in danger.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Ms. Hui, you talked about my colleague Jenny Kwan, who tabled a petition in the House of Commons calling on the Minister of Foreign Affairs to withdraw any privileges and immunities granted to the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office in Canada. Can you share your thoughts on that?

Also, how can foreign governments effectively counter transnational repression by the PRC while managing economic and political pressure at the same time?

[Frances Hui]

As I mentioned earlier, the HKETO is imposing a lot of threats in Canada, the U.S. and the other host countries that they are based in. I have just a few examples to elaborate on my previous response.

They have been very active—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Can you wrap it up? You have 10 seconds.

[Frances Hui]

Sure.

They are tracking Hong Kong dissidents abroad. I think they should not deserve diplomatic representation in Canada. Their diplomatic status should be revoked, and they should be shut down in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Now, we would like to go to the second round.

I would like to invite Mr. Lake to take the floor for three minutes, please.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Frances, I was pulling up the article from Boston.com from 2019 and was just struck by the fact that you were expressing, “I am from Hong Kong, not China”. You opened with the line, “I am from a city owned by a country that I don't belong to.”

Simply for expressing your identity and your reality as you've experienced it, you've gone through everything that you've gone through and your family's facing the threats that they're facing. I'll start by just commending your incredible courage as you're speaking your reality publicly.

I have a very short time. As I'm listening to both of you speak, I'm curious what connection there might be between the two. For example, to what extent might China or the CCP be involved in what's happening in Sri Lanka and maybe in other places?

Maybe Frances wants to chat about other places around the world.

Is there anything? Uma, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

[Uma Ruthiramoorthy]

That's a very loaded question and for me to answer it is also putting me somewhat in danger.

Yes, China does have a huge influence in Sri Lanka economically.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

Frances, can I ask you the same question, whether it's Sri Lanka or other countries?

Then, because I probably won't get another chance to weigh in, what I'm also curious about as you contemplate that is whether there might be some form of coordination. We know there's probably some form of coordination, but to what extent would there be coordination between Russia, Iran, the CCP and North Korea in some of these attempts around the world to repress people, whether they're from Hong Kong, originally from China or otherwise?

[Frances Hui]

Thank you for your question. Thank you so much for pulling out the article that I authored in 2019. It was a long time ago. Thank you very much for highlighting that.

I do not have a lot of information on examples of how countries work together to conduct transnational repression. I would just say, from my research and from my observations, that China has a pattern of using Interpol to hunt down activists and dissidents.

That was a concern raised when I received the arrest warrant. I wasn't sure if it was safe for me to travel. I would have to be very aware of going to any other countries that have extradition agreements with China, so I'm avoiding those countries from my list because of that.

I cannot speak on the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Please wrap it up in 10 seconds.

[Frances Hui]

I know that China is working really closely with Russia, Iran, North Korea and these authoritarian states on all sorts of things, including using Hong Kong as a sanction evasion hub for these countries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

I invite Ms. Anita Vandenbeld to take the floor, please.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I want to start with both of you and thank you very much for your determination to continue your advocacy despite the threats that you get.

My question right now is for Uma. I want to pick up on the Interpol thing because you said something that is really striking. You said there is a gazette of names of foreign nationals and that these foreign nationals, because they're listed as terrorists, may have difficulty travelling around the world and other things. I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit about this.

You said it's of foreign nationals from around the world. What countries would they be in? What's the purpose of this gazette? Is it open and public?

I'd love to hear a little bit more about it.

[Uma Ruthiramoorthy]

The Sri Lankan gazette actually lists any individual who speaks up against the government as a terrorist. They're actually listed as terrorists just for questioning the government. This is any individual globally.

That's something you really do need to keep an eye on if you ever wish to travel to Sri Lanka, because it's not a simple case. If you went there, you'd just be questioned or imprisoned. There's a possibility of getting tortured. It's a done deal. The moment your name is listed on the gazette, you can never enter Sri Lanka.

We actually have individuals in our organization who are listed on the gazette. We've also had individuals from our organization travel to other countries like Singapore and Malaysia and have difficulty entering because of this gazette list. I want to reiterate that they're on this list for simply speaking up against the government. It's for no other actual physical activity. They are not terrorists. They just simply questioned the government of the day.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Are these lists shared with Interpol? Have people had the same kinds of problems that were just raised?

[Uma Ruthiramoorthy]

I'm not sure if it's shared with Interpol, but you can literally just Google it. It's right there. Google “Sri Lankan gazette terrorist list”, and you can check whether your name is listed there.

They update it frequently. They've taken names off. People's names have been added back on. The moment you know your name is there, that's pretty much a done deal.